Me thinking

My question is if this bitch is too old to breed, she has turned 5 two weeks ago and wont be in season for six months. I know most people frown on breeding past five years of age so I'd like some feedback. She has had one litter 2 and a half years ago and the 5 puppies were all titled. Her career has been a show dog and she has done well. Best Puppy in the Canadian National Havanese Specialty for 2006, Multi Group winning, Multi Puppy In Show Winning, Multi Puppy In Specialty Winning. There is an exceptional Canadian male available to breed her to that has been winning specialty classes hands down and he's under two years old. Spay her now is the other option.

Another question... she's in really good coat and it's kinda tempting to take her back into the ring and special her again. Lots of people I have spoken to that show other breeds have said they hate when the older dogs come back to compete against the up and coming show dogs. They feel isn't not right and the oldies should stay at home because they are hard to compete against.

I am considering purchasing her, mostly because I'd love to have her as a pet, she's a very sweet dog and would be a welcomed addition. I've been thinking about this for 9 months. Don't send me to the breeders forum...lol. I'm just thinking out loud. My hubby is neutral so he's no help. Should be no surprise to any of you that I do enjoy my show animals ...my cheque book just screamed...lol.

Okay

I am all for showing her.. Why not. the " old guys" have every right. I wouldn't give a rats butt what others have to say..


As to breeding....Here are my thoughts.

I am strongly against breeding a large breed dog after 5 years of age. Here are my reasons. If you look at the life expentancy of the large breed dogs. They are 6-10 years. At 5 years of age. Their uterus's are getting older. When you have an older uterus.. it has a hard time to contract. Doesn't matter the health of the dog. This is nature. I can argue this point till I am blue in the face. When an uterus can not contract and they tire out more easiy.. this is where complications can and will occur. This is when you have C sections.. and have to use oxy shots. ( which is harder on the dogs- and have complications just by using the shots)

Now- here is where I am researching. Smaller breed dogs have a greater life spand then the larger ones. So 5 years of age is still young for the smaller breeds. However, I still believe the older the animal is - the harder for the labor and the recovery process. ANother thing may be the quality of milk production in an older animal. I am not saying this animal will have these complications.. but the possibliity is greater due to age. I know many will argue with me.. But I know what it is like when you have complications.. and trying to save the pups. It is heart breaking. But this happens with any breeding. Pooper you know this... But if I were you, I would really consider researching the age of the dog and what happens in their internal system. I am in this process.. as I have small breed dogs.. and learning more and more about their internal clocks daily....

There is nothing wrong with breeding a 5 year old dog in good health, all you have to ask yourself is "will it be good for the breed" and if it will and you are comfortable with it then you should go ahead.

At five years old your dog is in her mid 30's, hardly too old to have a litter as long as she is healthy, and because toy breeds live so much longer your dog is probably younger then the average as far as calculating in human years.

the risks are higher yes but 5 is not too old just like a 35 or 38 year old woman can easily have a healthy pregnancy.

Now if we are getting into 6 and 7 even 8 that is pushing it, but I know many good breeders of large and small breeds who are still having litters with 6 year old bitches. You have to think about how show titles and health testing works with larger breeds, lots of times the dogs are pushing 3 before they can even be considered for breeding, so the breeders choose back to back or they choose to wait and usually the dog has the last litter at 6 years old.

I know a breeder who lives close to me, she breeds black russian terriers (a fairly large breed) all her dogs are SCH titled, have championships and have all been health tested after age 2, when we were looking at breeds we went to talk to her because we didn't know much about the breed and she had a pregnant bitch who was 6 years old, I am sure she will be retiring her after that litter but certainly the dog was not too old to reproduce.

I know nothing about breeding. This is JMO, so take it with a grain of salt. LOL Had to say that because some of those on Kijiji take everything as the gospel truth. If it were a large breed dog, I would not breed it past 5 years of age. That's just me and if I were to breed. If it were a small breed dog, because they had a longer life span, then I would probably go with 6 to 6 1/2 years, not quite 7 years though.

As for what others say about older dogs in the show ring. The person with the younger dog is just going to have to work harder. Ignore them.

Mcpug, I disagree. Do you know why life expentancy of larger dogs differ from smaller dogs.

They age faster then the little dogs. Their bone structure. Their reproductive organs age at a faster rate.

When breeding any dog past 5 year of age. The uterus begins to loose elasciticy. What does this mean. It causes complications. It also will not rebound back like a young uterus. This will and can cause infection in the dog. In this scenior you can not compare dogs and humans. As a dogs body and internal organs age alot faster then a humans body. They are also finding that fertility may be a an issue just like humans. The older a human or dog is. The less eggs the female produces.

We can talk about complications that happens when you have older eggs. The cells of these eggs. You can't just look at a 5 year old dog and think it is healthy. Because unless you open up the dog and look at the condition of the uterus. I have seen what older uterus's look like compared to younger uterus.

The uterus in a healthy young dog starts to retract right after birth. In an older animal it takes sometimes 24 to 72 hours to retract. During this time. The body's natural bacteria can seep into the uterus and cause infections.

personally I don't care if other breeders do it. To each their own. I know medically speaking what happens in an older large breed dog. I wouldn't want to breed- because others think it is okay. But I am different.

But this is not a large breed dog, and I understand the aging factor with size vs breed of dog, toy poodles can live easily for 16 to 18 years so a 5 year old toy poodle is still young, the breed and size needs to be considered as a factor to placing a dog in a certain age category.

I am not saying that it is ideal, but certainly nothing unethical with it as long as you understand the potential complications associated with it, just like an older human having a baby (not to compare the two but for this example it works), there is nothing wrong with a 36 year old woman having a baby, 45 year old woman the risk is much higher but still usually alright, 55 you are really pushing your luck.

at 5 a dog is still fairly young IMO, especially a dog who has been well taken care of like this one probably has.

I am not saying that there is no negative effects associated with a middle aged dog whelping a litter, but you have to weigh the pros and cons, certainly if this bitch could do a justice to her breed and she is healthy then I don't see any strong reason against it as long as it is an educated choice.

Again there is no hard and fast rule, its a personal choice.

Talk to your vet and talk to some other people who are experienced with the breed, I have no idea what the life expectancy would be for this particular breed but I would use that as a base line to figure out how "aged' the dog really is.

Thanks for the input you guys. Life expectancy is around 15 years for this breed. I've been contemplating this for nine months and still doing so. She is about as good as it gets as far as breed standard as far as a breeding bitch, was properly heath tested but not in the last year updated. A lot to think more about.

pooperscooper wrote:

Thanks for the input you guys. Life expectancy is around 15 years for this breed. I've been contemplating this for nine months and still doing so. She is about as good as it gets as far as breed standard as far as a breeding bitch, was properly heath tested but not in the last year updated. A lot to think more about.

If you decide to get her and are not only looking for a pet, but for your next show prospect. Time is of the essence. If she just turned 5 and is not due to go into heat until 6 months from now, then you'll want those 6 months to bond with her and to find the right stud for when the time comes. You may only be able to get one breeding from her but she does appear to have a good track record with her last litter all being titled. Good luck in whatever decision to make, it isn't an easy one.

i know squat about breeding so I won't even try and weigh in on that.. as far as showing goes.. I say go for it... other showers are going to be upset no matter who beats them young or old.