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mcpug
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PostSubject: resource guarding GRRRRR   Tue 13 Jul 2010, 5:04 pm

My husband is SO DUMB

I told him a million times that the stupid dominance CM, brad pattison stuff DOES NOT WORK and he continues to do it behind my back. It didnt help that we had a trainer (not anymore) who was also into dominance based stuff....... she was a trainer who has been really good to us with the pug rescue and I should have asked more about her training style but didn't.

Anyways Violet is resource guarding, first only with my husband a few times and last night with me.

It started with my husband giving her a rib bone in the van and then trying to take it away from her so he could get her out of the van, she growled and crouched over it, so he snatched it from her and "put her in her place" he says..... OMG. anyways I think this is where it all started.

She has guarded a few things from my husband (including a sponge lol) but I explained trading to him and if there is food available he will trade but if not or if he is annoyed/grumpy he will try "his own" methods, which is pretty much yelling no and snatching it......

so last night I was bathing the kids and Violet got a hold of a dirty diaper, I went to reach for it and she growled and crouched, so I went downstairs and got a hot dog and played the trade game with the diaper (which she was fine with) but it was so nasty touching the diaper so many times lol.

Anyways I have been trading with her all day, hot dog for hot dog and trying for a solid "leave it"

I also ordered Jean Donaldsons book "mine"

She doesn't have bones/toys anything out of her crate, and eats only in her crate, but I am a little worried about her and the kids, her finding a stick and deciding its hers and something happening. Although I have seen the kids play fetch with her and have never seen any issue with her and them although I know it can change in a heart beat.

Any other advice anyone could offer besides what I am doing?
My husband is the root of the problem I understand this and I am working on him.

But I told him today that if this dog has issues its his fault and if we have to re home or heaven forbid something happens and she is PTS that he is to blame........ anyways it was a pretty stern talking and I plan on forcing him to read the book as well.

IDK is this pretty normal? is it a breed thing?
I have never had one of my own dogs resource guard so I am a little worried.

We have been looking for a new training with no luck, I am either not happy with the training style or they are too far away or offer classes at times that are just not good for us to attend without the kids.

I found a great trainer in Kitchener who does carting as well and all +R but she only offers classes in the evenings which is no good for us (but it seems to be the trend with group OB classes)

Wondering if I should pay for some private lessons?
Or is this something I can handle on my own?
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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Tue 13 Jul 2010, 9:55 pm

Guess nobody has anything to add accept getting rid of the husband......

I have tried he keeps coming back lol

I think I am going to go ahead and contact a trainer for some private lessons anyways.

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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Tue 13 Jul 2010, 10:08 pm

I think that private lessons may be a good thing but you have to make sure that Hubby attends as you and Violet seem to have a fairly good relationship. He needs to understand her language and why she is behaving such a way. We did class and private with our GSD and I can not believe the bond that created with us all.

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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Tue 13 Jul 2010, 10:31 pm

I am not certain what resource guarding is... is it always growling or could it also be keep away?

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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Tue 13 Jul 2010, 10:35 pm

That was the reason we did the puppy classes together, so he could learn and bond.

Violet is supposed to be his dog and I told him a million times that if he wanted a large dog that he was going to have to do things my way. But he so wants to prove a point to me about this (and everything else) and he ALWAYS looses, I just don't want violet being the looser in the situation because he wants to be in charge if that makes sense.

I try to explain to him why you need to trade with treats but he sees it like a lot of people do, as if you are rewarding her for guarding which is false. And we keep having these talks........ and he says he gets it and then if I am not here and something happens he does things totally wrong lol.

Violet is fine with me with the exception of the diaper incident, which after I went and got the pieces of hot dog she gave the diaper up readily, she is fine with the kids..... it only seems to be my husband that she has this thing for, IDK she really acts different when he is around.

I even notice a difference when we go to the dog park, if I go by myself with Violet things are fine, she pretty much follows me around the park, she comes when called, if I tell her to leave something she leaves it........ but when all 3 of us go she acts all crazy like lunging and pulling to get in, acting crazy with the other dogs, running away to the point where we have to run after her to keep track of where she is going.........

Plus he was talking about doing protection training with her YEA RIGHT like that's going to happen. I wouldn't let him protection train a parrot.

Its like he just wants these things to look good..... he wants a big dog so that he can look cool and feel powerful but he doesn't want to do any of the work (or any work the right way). I work for weeks doing something and in 1 hour he can ruin it lol.

I am going to call the trainer from kitchener tomorrow and see what she thinks.

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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Tue 13 Jul 2010, 10:42 pm

kbullet wrote:
I am not certain what resource guarding is... is it always growling or could it also be keep away?

No its resource guarding, she growls and postures.
My husband said she tried to bite him but I don't know if that was 100% true he tends to inflate the truth a little bit. And violet will put her mouth on your arm or hand if she doesn't like something, not to bite just to protest (and of course I correct her when she does it to me)

With the diaper I just went to reach for it (she was lying down on the floor with the diaper between her front paws), she moved away and growled, so thats when I went for the hot dog, as soon as she smelled the hot dog she let the diaper go..... it was nothing serious.

I don't think she would bite, I think she is all talk and kind of testing the waters at her age, but I don't want it to intensify either, I want it nipped in the butt.

She doesn't guard her food, it was only a few bones, an empty can of wet cat food a used sponge and a diaper so far.

But I saw the sponge incident and it was kind of play, no growl just moved away with it and kind of moved over it, but she still let my husband take it from her quite easily (and he gave her a treat when she did). The cat food and bone incidents I was only told about and didn't witness.
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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Tue 13 Jul 2010, 10:45 pm

I was just curious if Tank was guarding as he likes to play keep away but never growls....

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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Tue 13 Jul 2010, 11:12 pm

Doing the trade it game does work and you won't need to seek a trainer, you can correct this at home. The only thing is, your husband has to be on the same page as you. I have personally seen dogs have severe resource guarding issues (note: not in any dog I've ever owned) because one member in the house thought like your husband. Your husband is actually giving Violet a very good reason to resource guard and not trust anyone around something she views as high value.


ETA: Just read your one post about the hours for dog training. Is there any way that you can do evening classes, bring the kids and each (your husband and you) take turns? One is out on the floor with Violet the other is with the children watching from the side. Bring toys and colouring books to keep them busy.
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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Wed 14 Jul 2010, 9:19 am

mcpug I think Violet sees you as the alpha dog and hubby as a "littermate" I had the same problem with my two big dogs( Alaskan Malamute, Rottweiller ) They would do anything for me and nothing for him. I once grabbed a chicken leg right out of the rott's mouth that he got when my grandson left the fridge door open. If he heard me coming down the stairs he would nonchalantly roll off the loveseat that he would be laying on in the same room as hubby. I NEVER gave my dogs real bones, pigs ears etc. and only now will give the two I have now those dried chicken breasts cause they can be eaten quick. I have used the bait and switch as they were really food motivated, if they had something I wanted. I'm not sure what advice to give you big dogs can be challenging, my rotti NEVER growled at me but the mal was a dominant bitch till the end, and would only "listen" to me. I did spend most of my time with them though.
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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Wed 14 Jul 2010, 8:05 pm

I have been working in 5 minute sessions with her since yesterday and just now she got a hold of a wrapper from a hamburger (you know the paper in between the burgers), I thought for sure she would guard it (had both paws and chin on it hovering over it) but I told her to "leave it" and she stopped and looked up at me waiting for food, I gave her a piece of hamburger and took the paper away.

There was no hesitation and she didn't seem uncomfortable with it at all.

So hopefully I am working in the right direction.

I am going to keep working at it though but there has been no more incidence, in fact today on our walk she started drinking a puddle and I said leave it and she did....... so I think the association is good and is working.

ETA there is no way I could bring my twins to dog training classes LOL, plus my husband works from about 6pm until 10 so evening is really a bad time for us..... we would have to hire a sitter and it would end up costing us a small fortune.

But I think I might try the petsmart intermediate, they are very open with the hours they have, and I know they are not the best trainers but its more for the structure for me then anything and if I don't like a method I will use my own, plus they use clickers which I like.... they have a class starting early August which I may sign up for if I don't find anything better that fits the time slots I need.
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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Wed 14 Jul 2010, 9:22 pm

Smile JMO, there is nothing wrong with going to Petsmart for puppy training. I actually wish I would have went there when my dog was a puppy than the first dog training place I went to. Every Petsmart is different in that every dog trainer that works there has a different level of dog training experience. From what I saw when I was at the one in my city buying some cat and dog supplies, I was eaves dropping in on one of the classes , they are +R based methods, and offered good advice to the students.
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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Thu 15 Jul 2010, 1:55 am

I can very much identify with your frustration Mcpug when other people in the household are involved with interfering with training the way "we" want things to go. I call it sabotage...my word for barking is "quiet" and they quit immediately yet the others say "shut up" which they don't acknowledge, and then the dogs are "stupid". I use "off" if they jump up on anyone or even if it seems they are going to and the others say "get down"...lots of other examples but it pisses me off that the other humans can't get with the program. I employ using vocabulary with my dogs for my goal of having well behaved dogs and it sucks when the humans mess things up. One thing that really gets my goat is when visitors invite the dogs, because they are vertically challenged to jump up on them, I command "off" and they say...no it's alright, I don't mind". Having to explain to them that they are screwing up my training program often gets met with a comment that equals :roll: . Good luck with Violet and I hope your spouse gets on board with the training of her...after all he was the one that wanted her. Smile Smile Smile
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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Thu 15 Jul 2010, 8:39 am

Even having a little dog like my yorkie,nothing pisses me off worse than the people that come here and encourage her to lick their faces,which I just do not allow,but the same thing is always said,"she is little what can it hurt" Grrrrrrrrrrr,even my kids know not to let her lick or nip at them

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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Thu 15 Jul 2010, 8:59 am

mcpug wrote:
I have been working in 5 minute sessions with her since yesterday and just now she got a hold of a wrapper from a hamburger (you know the paper in between the burgers), I thought for sure she would guard it (had both paws and chin on it hovering over it) but I told her to "leave it" and she stopped and looked up at me waiting for food, I gave her a piece of hamburger and took the paper away.

There was no hesitation and she didn't seem uncomfortable with it at all.

So hopefully I am working in the right direction.

I am going to keep working at it though but there has been no more incidence, in fact today on our walk she started drinking a puddle and I said leave it and she did....... so I think the association is good and is working.

ETA there is no way I could bring my twins to dog training classes LOL, plus my husband works from about 6pm until 10 so evening is really a bad time for us..... we would have to hire a sitter and it would end up costing us a small fortune.

But I think I might try the petsmart intermediate, they are very open with the hours they have, and I know they are not the best trainers but its more for the structure for me then anything and if I don't like a method I will use my own, plus they use clickers which I like.... they have a class starting early August which I may sign up for if I don't find anything better that fits the time slots I need.


Good mcpug one of the best commands "leave it" I use "OUT" all my dogs learned this one at a very early age. Hubby also uses different words :roll:
When I want them to wait in the car till I attach their flexi-leads I say "WAIT" He always says stay :roll: No matter how many times I tell him he just doesn't remember? IDK. I also have a problem with people when they come in I say just ignore them and they of course start petting them and making a fuss which causes them to get all excited and especially the mal will just hang around then to get nonstop petting.
We took Ruby our mal to Sat. classes that may be an idea, the trainers really do like to have the whole family involved.
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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Thu 15 Jul 2010, 4:12 pm

I am lucky.. for the most part....

I have food aggression issues now. ALL my fault for feeding raw.. Now everyone separated besides my 2 old guys when it comes to food.

HOWEVER.. the leave it command is the main command for the big boy .He is a work in progress.. arrgg.. 1 step forward... 200 steps back...
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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Thu 15 Jul 2010, 4:48 pm

The way I did it was with a hot dog, cut it up into small pieces.

Put one piece in each hand and offer one piece with an open palm and if she tries to go for it I close my hand, once she looked at me instead of the piece of hot dog I gave her the piece in my other hand.

Now I can throw a whole hot dog on the ground in front of her and tell her to leave it and she does.

Its so funny though because you can tell its hard for her, she will usually lie down and turn away from the hot dog on the ground lol. But hey it works.......for hot dogs anyways LOL.
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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Thu 15 Jul 2010, 5:13 pm

Mini wrote:
I am lucky.. for the most part....

I have food aggression issues now. ALL my fault for feeding raw.. Now everyone separated besides my 2 old guys when it comes to food.

HOWEVER.. the leave it command is the main command for the big boy .He is a work in progress.. arrgg.. 1 step forward... 200 steps back...



I thought feeding raw would cause food aggression issues as well, even a bone or pig ear caused problems with my last three dogs. I also separate when feeding them all. Everyone gets a different portion size.
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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Thu 15 Jul 2010, 5:45 pm

jamn53 wrote:
Mini wrote:
I am lucky.. for the most part....

I have food aggression issues now. ALL my fault for feeding raw.. Now everyone separated besides my 2 old guys when it comes to food.

HOWEVER.. the leave it command is the main command for the big boy .He is a work in progress.. arrgg.. 1 step forward... 200 steps back...



I thought feeding raw would cause food aggression issues as well, even a bone or pig ear caused problems with my last three dogs. I also separate when feeding them all. Everyone gets a different portion size.

Sorry to hijack your post Mcpug

But I will NEVER EVER.. EVER feed RAW again... I don't care what the books say. I experienced a total change of behavior with my dogs. To the extent one dog almost lost his LIFE over it.

Dennis was in the pen. Gunner buried Rib bones.. Dennis was doing something. gunner showed aggression to dennis. Thinking maybe dennis was takn his rib BONE. NEVER in my life has GUNNER ever been aggressive to humans.... They also were separated feeding RAW Gunner would bury it. I had some wicked PYR fights. Not just tiffs.. ALL and all.. KILL fights. They would growl at the goats when in their feeding area. Not like them. When I came home after the aggression gunner showed. I didn't know what to do. They are healthy. I was stuck. Not the same dogs. Told Dennis.. take all the raw to the dump. Went and bough Kibble.. Took some time.. gunner is now back to himself. Still have eating issues. But I think I have a good receipe in place. So hopefully he will gain some weight. Plus his balls are gone LMFAO..

BUt these dogs temperment CHANGED... My female.. still barks and growls and has a little bit of aggression with other animals. Never with us. I can reach in.. pull anything out of her jaws. and she wags her tail.. WHAT a BIG mistake that was... Everyone preaching RAW.. RAW.. RAW.. well.. NEVER.. EVER AGAIN... In my bad experience.. They change. Even more so when you have more dogs.. and I do not or will not tolerate any aggression in any animal I have. I am lucky that I thought about the aggression.. before I made another stupid decision in putting him down. Because he is back to his regular self. Licking the duck and the goats.. Loving everyone....
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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Thu 15 Jul 2010, 8:51 pm

Also not meaning to high hijack. When I tried to feed raw, my dog just wasn't into it, I would find raw meat spit out into my winter boots. Yuck! My older cats didn't like raw, and the feral outside didn't like raw either (that last one was weird). The three kittens really liked raw, but were very aggressive towards eat other at meal time and it was hard to separate them. So it's just kibble for the pets.
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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Thu 15 Jul 2010, 9:32 pm

That's funny because it make sense yet I have never had any of the raw advocates say anything about the behavior aspect of feeding raw.

I give the pugs chicken necks and backs about once a week but mostly just to clean their teeth.

But they do go crazy for it, I only feed them outside and I wouldn't DREAM of giving anything raw to Violet, especially around the other dogs.

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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Fri 16 Jul 2010, 9:03 am

Raw is definitely very high value to carnivorous animals. However, SOME animals who were not introduced to raw foods early will not recognize it as a food item.

I have been a raw feeder for almost 20 years. I did it way before it was the cool thing to do. I had a dog with severe allergies and it was the only thing that helped him.

My dogs get raw foods in crates only. They eat fast, and that's the end of that.

When it is a long lasting raw item, such as bones, they are also separated in crates to enjoy these things. Once the bones are stripped, they trade them around, strip them some more, and then they go into the toy box. They are entertained by these bones for weeks sometimes before I toss them out because they got too small or brittle. Once they are stripped there are no more issues between the dogs.

Because I have fed raw for SO LONG, I do notice strong differences between my dogs, and those of my friends who are kibble fed.

My dogs have clean teeth and fresh smelling mouths, theirs do not.
My dogs have naturally glossy clean feeling coats, never a greasy feel, and very little dog odor.
My dogs have small firm stools that are easy to pick up, and low odor.
My dogs are easy to keep in hard cut muscle and top condition.

Feeding raw is not for everyone. I quit being a "raw evangelist" many years ago. I will say that for me, it is the best thing I ever did for my dogs, and I would never go back to a kibble diet. I just cannot convince myself that it is healthy for any animal to live with zero fresh food in the diet.

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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Fri 16 Jul 2010, 9:28 am

RedyreRotties wrote:
Raw is definitely very high value to carnivorous animals. However, SOME animals who were not introduced to raw foods early will not recognize it as a food item.

I have been a raw feeder for almost 20 years. I did it way before it was the cool thing to do. I had a dog with severe allergies and it was the only thing that helped him.

My dogs get raw foods in crates only. They eat fast, and that's the end of that.

When it is a long lasting raw item, such as bones, they are also separated in crates to enjoy these things. Once the bones are stripped, they trade them around, strip them some more, and then they go into the toy box. They are entertained by these bones for weeks sometimes before I toss them out because they got too small or brittle. Once they are stripped there are no more issues between the dogs.

Because I have fed raw for SO LONG, I do notice strong differences between my dogs, and those of my friends who are kibble fed.

My dogs have clean teeth and fresh smelling mouths, theirs do not.
My dogs have naturally glossy clean feeling coats, never a greasy feel, and very little dog odor.
My dogs have small firm stools that are easy to pick up, and low odor.
My dogs are easy to keep in hard cut muscle and top condition.

Feeding raw is not for everyone. I quit being a "raw evangelist" many years ago. I will say that for me, it is the best thing I ever did for my dogs, and I would never go back to a kibble diet. I just cannot convince myself that it is healthy for any animal to live with zero fresh food in the diet.

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I guess it depends what kibble you use as mine have all of the above too.
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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Fri 16 Jul 2010, 6:52 pm

mine does too..

I guess there is also a huge difference. As my dogs are also not " PETS" for the most part..

Let me explain. I can't pen my dogs in their crates til they finsih a bone. However, problem is.. For most people it may be the most effective method.

However, concerning my working dogs. If they are guarding the herd. and the herd cuts themselve. That smell of blood may set them off. as they are not in the house.. supervised. Like most dogs. The change in their behavior. I wouldn't risk it for the world. They are not " trainned in OB" Besides pure basics. I don't need them to be trainned in that matter. It might be different like you said if all they had was raw. They do get fresh food. JUST not anything meat. MY kibble is pretty good food. I do switch from acana and kirkland. They do get wet food. They get wheat germ as well as chia seed.

But I will never do that again. Just not a good combo in my situation... and the food aggression.. does not fly as they have cats that wonder around them when they eat. NO goats. cause the damn things eat my dog food.. LMFAO.. Even my horses have eaten kibble...

I only fed RAW.. because of feeding issues. I threw out over 130 pounds of raw meat.. LMAO..
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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Sat 17 Jul 2010, 10:01 am

I feed my dogs raw a couple times a week. I've never had any problems with resource guarding with us but of course I feed them separate. Bruno and Bella really dont have any resource guarding issues with each other but Sophie is a big resource guarder with the other dogs.

Mcpug. I know how frustrating it is when other family members are not on the same page as you with dog behaviour and training.
Its not to late to train hubby though Very Happy. Mine grew up thinking you had to use harsh methods for a dog to respect you but I trained him to see the light Very Happy .
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PostSubject: Re: resource guarding GRRRRR   Tue 20 Jul 2010, 8:04 pm

Just for an update, although I haven't received the book yet....

We have both been working with her and my husband traded a rib bone for a piece of hot dog and she did not hesitate to give it up so I am very happy with that. There have been no more incidence since the diaper.

But my pugs got into a fight over a chicken nugget today lol, its the first fight they have had, daisy was pretty much doing all the fighting and had lucky pinned up against a chair....... but no damage done, I guess there is a first for everything.
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