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Tookey
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PostSubject: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 10:49 am

I am taking the time to discuss this "title' that has been said to us in a previous post. Why cause honestly I think the title collector pets is a bunch of hogwash!

Now a collector's pet (as feather's has put it) is for unusual colouring/markings. It was also stated that she breed's "collector pets".

Now for some that don't know here is some information

1- Unless you do really in-depth research into the genetics of the potential parents, you really have no way of knowing the colour of future litters, and even still, the breeding results are never cast in stone, so how the hell does she consider herself a "collector pet breeder"....read on!


NOW FOR THE GOOD STUFF....


2- there are two types of pigment which create coat colour in dogs (and most other mammals). Pigment is just the thing that gives each strand of hair its colour, just like pigment in paint or dye, or pigment in your own hair. All coat colours and patterns in dogs are created by these two pigments. Each of the pigments has a "default" colour, and it can then be changed by various genes

Now the part that is set in bold, you will notice it is stating that to get your different colour's (and unusual colours/markings)you are now messing with the gene's.

I'm sorry but I'm going to be bitch here and state if colour breeding is your thing to do then your healthy puppy aspect is all bullshit!

As answer this, how can you stand behind your dogs as "healthy pups" if colour breeding is what you do?

Read on....

Merle is a difficult color to work with because it is closely associated with blindness and deafness, and a double dose can be fatal.

I'm not done yet.....

By doing the colour breeding, you then get into the aspect through the AKC as impure breeding. Which impure breeding means your dog's are mutts!!! They are not purebred!

edited to add colour breeding to the thread title


Last edited by Tookey on Thu 10 Jun 2010, 12:07 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 11:50 am

colour breeding must be handled very carefully, you must study pedigrees, not only for health issues but also negitive colour issues, then you need to take into account the individual dog, is the breed standard worthy, do the female/ male compliment eachother. i breed dachshunds, so i speak from a dachshund point of view. i never would breed dapple to dapple, or dilute to dilute, i would never take a solid male out of a dapple mom or dad and breed it back to another dapple, because it could be a hidden dapple. sometimes dapple is one fleck that you would not ever notice, so you need to relie on well kept colour coaded pedigrees.
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 12:02 pm

dachie, since you replied to the topic I'm going to ask you a question (I'm not putting you on the spot, or trying to start an argument, I'm just providing a debate on colour breeding/collector pet)

What can happen if you do not take all precautions in colour breeding? (I want to hear your opinion on it)
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 12:42 pm

believe me you do not put me on the spot. i love the opertunity to talk colour disaster, people are sick of me preaching on. ok my first and largest fear is dapples [merels] in the wrong hands. puppys can be born deaf, blind, internal issues, brain damaged. deformed. and the lucky ones are born dead. dilute to dilute is just looking for poor hair coat and skin problems. it is so rampid in the blue dogs that alopecia is often called blue dog desiese. please if you have a dapple[merel] that you want to breed make sure the other partner is a solid out of solids. a double dapple that does survive all of the above will have no skin pigment, making it subject to skin cancer and the life span is about 7 years. now all that said, i do have an extreme double dapple, all wight few little spots of choc dapple on one ear face and few dots on foot. i adopted him from dachshund rescue of north america. he was abandoned at a year old in the woods in arkensas, i applied to adopt him the first day he went up for adoption, i was lucky and was accepted, over many other applicants. he has been with me 5 years now, he has his canine good citizen award. he is a wonderful little guy, no eyes. and deaf as a stone, i monitor his sun time carefully, and he wears sunscreen. once i figure out how to post a pic, i will do it. or if someone else has a pic of soldier do it for me, i am practicly computer illitrate.
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 1:00 pm

First of all I don't consider what you've stated preaching one bit. I find most people when it comes to colour breeding in plain English, to be rather stupid. I personally am not a breeder of any sorts. None of my dogs have ever had puppies (breeding, or by accidents).

Now with that out of the way lol......I am one of the few that find breeding interesting, however will not allow breeding to take place in my house. (aka I'm weird) lol


I am assuming Soldier is from a colour breeding disaster or puppy mill etc.?

I see so many people with Merle or dapple breeds now a days and I wonder how the hell can people play with breeding them. Personally once getting into the Merle/dapples etc I find you can't guarantee health anymore (Thats my personal opinion)
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 1:06 pm

soldier the love of my life
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 1:10 pm

OMG a topic I love !!!!

To understand and do color breeding you have to be able to understand genetics also you have to study lines not just a few generations but several . there is more thought study and testing required to breed pets like this !!!!!!

So if you know I breed collector pets than you know I have done more health testing and color testing than the average breeder !

I hang my hat on some of the highest post in America with my birds and colors I have produced just getting my feet wet in the dogs .

I don't know how many of you seen my Merle Chi babies that one litter was a 3 yr project . You don't just run out and buy 2 dogs that will produce color like that . Allot of thought and planning went into that breeding . Not to mention the money .

And my bitch whelped 8 puppies 2 black and white and the rest Merles . also there were only 2 females in the litter . I have been using a timing method a retired Dobie-show person taught me on how to control the sexes of pups .
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 2:05 pm

dachiedude wrote:
soldier the love of my life

ok he is absolutely adorable!!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 2:17 pm

feathers wrote:
OMG a topic I love !!!!

To understand and do color breeding you have to be able to understand genetics also you have to study lines not just a few generations but several . there is more thought study and testing required to breed pets like this !!!!!!

So if you know I breed collector pets than you know I have done more health testing and color testing than the average breeder !

I hang my hat on some of the highest post in America with my birds and colors I have produced just getting my feet wet in the dogs .

I don't know how many of you seen my Merle Chi babies that one litter was a 3 yr project . You don't just run out and buy 2 dogs that will produce color like that . Allot of thought and planning went into that breeding . Not to mention the money .

And my bitch whelped 8 puppies 2 black and white and the rest Merles . also there were only 2 females in the litter . I have been using a timing method a retired Dobie-show person taught me on how to control the sexes of pups .


Since this is a topic you love (and like I told dachie, I am not putting anyone on the spot, or trying to cause an argument, its a debate and that is it)

Now answer me this feather's, you many know about the genetics, etc that it takes into "colour breeding" but how many breeders out there these days that do this "collective pet" breeding that don't study the genetics behind it, the actual down right nitty gritty of it? and how many dogs are produced (sorry dachie but I'm using soldier as an example if you don't mind) like soldier
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 2:45 pm

Tookey wrote:
feathers wrote:
OMG a topic I love !!!!

To understand and do color breeding you have to be able to understand genetics also you have to study lines not just a few generations but several . there is more thought study and testing required to breed pets like this !!!!!!

So if you know I breed collector pets than you know I have done more health testing and color testing than the average breeder !

I hang my hat on some of the highest post in America with my birds and colors I have produced just getting my feet wet in the dogs .

I don't know how many of you seen my Merle Chi babies that one litter was a 3 yr project . You don't just run out and buy 2 dogs that will produce color like that . Allot of thought and planning went into that breeding . Not to mention the money .

And my bitch whelped 8 puppies 2 black and white and the rest Merles . also there were only 2 females in the litter . I have been using a timing method a retired Dobie-show person taught me on how to control the sexes of pups .


Since this is a topic you love (and like I told dachie, I am not putting anyone on the spot, or trying to cause an argument, its a debate and that is it)

Now answer me this feather's, you many know about the genetics, etc that it takes into "colour breeding" but how many breeders out there these days that do this "collective pet" breeding that don't study the genetics behind it, the actual down right nitty gritty of it? and how many dogs are produced (sorry dachie but I'm using soldier as an example if you don't mind) like soldier



Way to many Tookey that is why I screen any buyer be it my birds or my dogs carefully . There have been some posters on here and Kijiji who have tried to say I sell at the flea market I don't I deliver at the fleamarket . I have a pet supply shop at the flea market the only animals that are ever displayed on tables are oh all things cats my vet sends people who have opps litters down to me to help find homes . And now that I have admitted that I will be called a cat farmer next . LOL oh the cats are free and all come with a kitty pack with spay nueter certs . $50 to get fixed .
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 3:02 pm

yes soldier is a beautiful boy, and he has paid a high price for his beauty.because some uneducated, uncaring, bastard just had to push the limits. and then the nerve to just abandon him without a secound thought. he sure has kept me humble, and has been a wonderful teaching aid for some that just might take the chance, people need to think long and hard before doing something that puts more of gods creatures at risk.
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 3:12 pm

dachiedude wrote:
yes soldier is a beautiful boy, and he has paid a high price for his beauty.because some uneducated, uncaring, bastard just had to push the limits. and then the nerve to just abandon him without a secound thought. he sure has kept me humble, and has been a wonderful teaching aid for some that just might take the chance, people need to think long and hard before doing something that puts more of gods creatures at risk.


+10000000000000000000

But when done right some of the most beautiful animals are produced and highly valued by their owners .
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 3:30 pm

ok now the ultimate question (sorry this one may seem like I'm putting one on the spot)


Why go into colour breeding? If you know that there is so much more possible health conditions that could occur because of an "opps" or you were given the wrong information etc. etc etc the list could continue. Why would you mess with the potential health of a dog just to get the "colour breeding" aspect?

Now feather's you stated it took you 3 years to get your Merle Chi. That coat pattern did not show up in Chi's till about 15 years ago or so. Now from the research I have done on Merle Chi's its stated that originally a Merle Chi must of been a cross bred with a dachshund and falsifying the purebred dog registration. What's your opinion on that?
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 4:27 pm

a single dapple or merle is a perfectly healthy dog, that dog will carry the lethal wight gene, if bred properly to a solid, with no dapple grandparents, you will produce all geneticly healthy pups. when crossed the line and your dapple is bred to another dapple, or a oops hidden dapple, theres your trouble, bouth dogs are carrying the lethal wight gene and there you go double dapple, that is one reason you must know your dogs inside out. i will not keep a male dapple, or a solid male out of a dapple at my house. i just lost my two old dapples a few years back, they were 16 and 17. born into my hands and died in my hands. i bought my very first dapple bitch from ada mccord in ft wayne indiana, ada was at that time the president of the american miniture dachshund ascotieon. i studied and showed my dogs and got a good foundation started. there are those out there that will tell you that they can produce healthy double dapples, that is not so. they cull the blind , without eyes, deaf and other wise visual imparments. remember these dogs can have other issues that does not meet the eye. inturnal and neurological desiese that may not show up for years. colour breeding is wonderful. as long as a person know the limitations. and takes all safety precautions. somewhere along my path i fell in love with the rescue dogs, there has been many in and out my door, but we have 5 that we permently adopted. most of our dogs are spayed and neutered. but i still dabble a little in breeding, the creams are my newist facination.
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 4:54 pm

feathers wrote:
OMG a topic I love !!!!

To understand and do color breeding you have to be able to understand genetics also you have to study lines not just a few generations but several . there is more thought study and testing required to breed pets like this !!!!!!

So if you know I breed collector pets than you know I have done more health testing and color testing than the average breeder !

I hang my hat on some of the highest post in America with my birds and colors I have produced just getting my feet wet in the dogs .

I don't know how many of you seen my Merle Chi babies that one litter was a 3 yr project . You don't just run out and buy 2 dogs that will produce color like that . Allot of thought and planning went into that breeding . Not to mention the money .

And my bitch whelped 8 puppies 2 black and white and the rest Merles . also there were only 2 females in the litter . I have been using a timing method a retired Dobie-show person taught me on how to control the sexes of pups .

You mean your Chi- MIXED puppies them pups you posted were not purebred
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Tookey
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 5:11 pm

There is so many people out there in today's day and age that don't even know what a Phantom Dapple or Phantom Merle is?

A lot of breeders are only out for the money in which ( I'm not pointing fingers here to anyone let me put that at rest) most don't even know if their dog is a Phantom or not until they have an "opps litter" in which you now just produced how many unhealthy pups. And still they will try again.
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 5:22 pm

well then they should not be breeding dapple/merel. you need a good solid understanding of this phantom gene, i call it hidden, you need to be able to trust the paperwork, and that is only as reputable as the people you deal with.
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 6:07 pm

Tookey wrote:
ok now the ultimate question (sorry this one may seem like I'm putting one on the spot)


Why go into colour breeding? If you know that there is so much more possible health conditions that could occur because of an "opps" or you were given the wrong information etc. etc etc the list could continue. Why would you mess with the potential health of a dog just to get the "colour breeding" aspect?

Now feather's you stated it took you 3 years to get your Merle Chi. That coat pattern did not show up in Chi's till about 15 years ago or so. Now from the research I have done on Merle Chi's its stated that originally a Merle Chi must of been a cross bred with a dachshund and falsifying the purebred dog registration. What's your opinion on that?


You have test for color genes before getting serious about pairings .
With all the DNA testing available their is no reason to line breed any more . Line breeding was used to clean lines . Now if you line bred in my opinion you are a stupid uncaring fool because when it goes wrong it goes terribly wrong .
There is no reason why it should ever be done with to days technology .
Only desperate people with breeding stock that is way inferior would even considerate .

A new color is developed slowly and over long periods . You may have a clutch of birds of normal color you notice one of them is slightly different maybe lighter maybe darker . You save this bird back for breeding then you search either in your own avairys or several other breeders until you find a bird with the same trait . You breed these 2 birds together hoping to get the trait to reproduce in the offspring , then you get into recessive and dominant genes depending on which one of these genes carry the color you are working for will determine in what sequence you have to keep breeding . The normal color is all ways dominate and the new color can be either or . If it is recessive then the male has to be the carrier a female will not carry that gene.

Now this gets a whole lot more involved do you really want to know or are you just trying to bust my chops .
Because if you really want know I will talk to about it if not then believe me I know my talk and can walk it .

Oh all most forgot one of your questions if and I say if the dachshund were used at some time you would get what is called a throw back . A fluke of nature when this happened then it could be proven for a fact that a dachshund was used . And in my belief with as many Merle, and in the UK they call them brindle we would be seeing throw backs .

Maybe Dachie could add some insite to that she has been breeding for color much longer than I . I have only been doing it for 20 yrs in birds .

Oh thought of another question I remember seeing you ask and it was why would we breed for color if some one dishonest might breed two with the white fatal genes together ? well it is like anything you depend on the honesty of the breeder just like you hope the breeder your buying from hasn't line bred their dogs and you get one with genetic problems . No matter where or what you do you will all ways have a bad Apple .
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 7:59 pm

IMO (and I'm going to be blunt)

I've done my fair share of research on "colour breeding" Do I think its right. Hell no! A dog that is produced purely for collector/Vanity/Colour to me is pathetic. I honestly see no real purpose behind a vanity dog/collectors dog/ or one purely made to achieve "colour"

I admit I do find interest in "collector/vanity/colour" dogs but its merely for research, to gain knowledge of how people choose to play god with animals. And for a buyer that is simply buying one of those dogs for the WOW factor should not be a dog owner.

However I will continue this at a later time, it is time for me to head to town for supper!
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 9:02 pm

Color and such aside, why are they called something asinine like "collector pets" ? That sounds like tiny glass miniatures you buy and put on your night stand.
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 10:25 pm

StephanieF wrote:
Color and such aside, why are they called something asinine like "collector pets" ? That sounds like tiny glass miniatures you buy and put on your night stand.


People get bored they want something new .Breeders enjoy the challenge of working with genetics , if done right it has no adverse effects on the animal such as changing the shape of the body . In changing the basic structure of animals is when you run into health problems .
Making the working breeds larger and larger makes them unable to perform the jobs they were originally bred to do . Many breeds vaguely look like the foundation stock they were derived from all because of whim or trend of the times .
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Thu 10 Jun 2010, 10:34 pm

feathers wrote:
StephanieF wrote:
Color and such aside, why are they called something asinine like "collector pets" ? That sounds like tiny glass miniatures you buy and put on your night stand.


People get bored they want something new .Breeders enjoy the challenge of working with genetics , if done right it has no adverse effects on the animal such as changing the shape of the body . In changing the basic structure of animals is when you run into health problems .
Making the working breeds larger and larger makes them unable to perform the jobs they were originally bred to do . Many breeds vaguely look like the foundation stock they were derived from all because of whim or trend of the times .

If someone is "bored" with a breed of dog over something like coat color, I would not be willing to sell them a dog.
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Fri 11 Jun 2010, 3:33 am

i call my dogs, canadian kennel club registered mini dachshunds, well bred , beautiful colours, well planned litters.


Last edited by dachiedude on Fri 11 Jun 2010, 8:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Fri 11 Jun 2010, 7:24 am

dachiedude wrote:
i call my dogd, canadian kennel club registered mini dachshunds, well bred , beautiful colours, well planned litters.


Yes you do a fantastic job , I am glad I have you to get advice from . Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Collector Pets   Fri 11 Jun 2010, 7:35 am

StephanieF wrote:
feathers wrote:
StephanieF wrote:
Color and such aside, why are they called something asinine like "collector pets" ? That sounds like tiny glass miniatures you buy and put on your night stand.


People get bored they want something new .Breeders enjoy the challenge of working with genetics , if done right it has no adverse effects on the animal such as changing the shape of the body . In changing the basic structure of animals is when you run into health problems .
Making the working breeds larger and larger makes them unable to perform the jobs they were originally bred to do . Many breeds vaguely look like the foundation stock they were derived from all because of whim or trend of the times .

If someone is "bored" with a breed of dog over something like coat color, I would not be willing to sell them a dog.

If people didn't get bored with hum drum every day life several of the breeds , coats , and colors of dogs you see today wouldn't be here .
There are very few ancient breeds that have not been altered by man or used to create new breeds .

And I guess if you think referring to certain variety of pets as collectors is asinine you need to do your research and discover who coined the phrase and take it up with them................
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