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 tittles and DOGs

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PostSubject: tittles and DOGs   Tue 25 May 2010, 1:47 pm

Okay since I can't post my thoughts on Kijiji.... and I am frustrated by some posts.

I am going to post them on here.

I have no problem with showing animals.. I encourage it for the most part. But I guess I get frustrated by peoples ignorance that a tittle needs to be on every dog in order to breed. Edit or show their worth.

Now let me use examples. Just the other day, I got a phone call- from somoneI do not know- but they got my number fromso and so. They asked me if they can use gunner as a I stud. Because they have a purebred pyr- ( show dog) and they wanted her to be a working dog. But sadly she isn't a good quality working dog. So they wanted a couple of her pups to be working dogs. I said no-for other reasons- plus gunner is being chopped soon. We had a lenghty conversation in regards to pyrs. It ended with.. he shouldve of phoned me prior to purchasing this pyr for work. As the breeder of said pyr- lied to him about a whole wack of stuff. So now he says- he has a gorgeous dog who has champion parents but isn't worth anything to him. Now you need to understand he paid a small fortune. I did offer to take her after my female is fixed and see if I can help.. But he was just so frustrated at this point. I feel so sorry for him as he did pay a small fortune for this dog and it hasn't helped his situation loosing lambs from coyotes.

so saying a tittle or championship needs to be on all breeds is a load of poop. I can only talk of certain breeds as that is what I am familar with.

Now lets talk mastiffs.. I was toying the idea after talking with pooper.. of showing bosco. Until he surpassed the standards set out. But I wasn't mad that he wasn't show quality.. but more so with the standards set out for his breed. Now if you research the history of the mastiff.. Go past the fighting part.. because mastiffs were never bred to fight. This isn't in their temperment. You need to understand how they operate. I have witnessed this with Drake wanting to kill him LMAO ( another post) but they use their body weight and their heads to subdue an animal or person without puncturing their object. A long time ago they were used on plantations... on Farms as working dogs. Their job was to subdue and restrain their target by using their bodies. They would not inflict harm as puncture wounds but hold them until their masters came. So his size shouldve of been a bonus and not a fault of his breed. Plus to tittle him wouldn't prove his worth out here..(even though he is balless now LMAO) but he is worth his weight in gold.. and he has proven himself to me as a working dog and his temperment surpasses anything.. ( minus Drake- but we are working on that problem if Ican find a muzzle big enough for him.. LMAO- another post)


So that brings me to my pugs ( gosh how I love them LMAO- well I love everyone-) BUt I have to love their attitude and they are not afraid of anything.. those brave souls... good thing I have the big guys to back their attitudes up.. LMAO

Yes, I had an oopsie litter- I wasn't planning on breeding them yet.. but I researched like crazy when I first got them.. because if I decided to breed I wanted to better their breathing problems that have plagued the pug breed. Both of my pugs have longer noses as is evident in their offspring. They have amazing nostrils which you don't see this on the show pugs.

Now, I have been talking to what I would of thought was reputible pug breeders. Until, I had complications with chelsea.And what they said to me blew my mind. These breeders are what most of kijiji said would be great breeders.. But what you see on the outside is not what really happens. After chelsea had her litter, one breeder and me had a little bit of an argument.. I said that we spayed her. She said.. Why.. just shoot her full of antiboitics and she shouldve of came out of it just fine. and produced another litter. I was floored. More then floored. The health of my animals is number one.. who the hell cares about another litter of pups ( even though this litter has amazed me) Then she goes on to say.. well our you going to rehome her. I said NO, she is worth more to me as a pet and a pet therapy dog..then as a dam. Now this breeder doesn't advertise that she does this. In the pug world she is considered to be one of the top pug breeders. But that is what you see on the outside or how she portrays her kennels. But what she does behind close doors would floor you. Well the conversation didn't end well.. LMAO... she won't be saying anything good about my name. But frankly I don't give a rats butt. She wasn't the only one... I had this conversation with. Now I know not all breeders are like this. But it does floor me. ANd yes her dogs are tittled. I was looking into buying one of her pups in the future.. ( distant future)but I have found out that her dogs get lazered for their nostrils.. so she is hiding the fact from the public.. another pet peeve.... I am not perfect.. LOL.. at all.. but when you try and learn from the BEST.. and get a mentor and find out that several of the ones are nothing but trash ( not all) well shit.... I will just go from my gut and my heart.. ( they have yet to fail me)

Sorry for the long friggin post..But I have had some experiences over my life time with good and bad breeders. Champion breeders.. and non tittles. Their are good and bad in every circumstances.....and not one is better then the other in my opinion and based on my experience.

Do you know what I love about RED, has nothing to do with her tittles or her pedigrees. Is that she Cart trains her dogs. She does something with them that should be applauded. Not saying her pedigrees should not be rewarded.

But I applaud those that do ajility with their dogs.. or even their small dogs. I think that is amazing and I rather watch videos of dogs " working"imo then prancing around a dog floor. I do think showing dogs is important and some breed standards are. Don't get me wrong.. but it is not the Be all and end all in the dog world..

I know this post is huge, but it is something I am passionate about.

Now, lets talk bandit.. he is a keeshond ( and a purebred) When I rescued him- took me forever to trace his tatoos back to the " reputable breeder" who in their contract said they would take back any animal. This was years ago... She refused to acknowledge bandit.. and said must of been a mistake. I wasn't asking her to take him back... But I wanted to let her know what happened to him. She couldn't care less. Her loss my gain.. cause I happened to love that furball.. who talks back to me all the time.. and taught 2 of my kids to walk.. LMAO

That brings to me to Drake- my who knows what he is mixed with dog.. LMAO. no money or tittled in the world. Would prove his worth or his ability. Time and time again. When I think we may have to put him down. He bounces back ( with a little bit of help) I have never had the honor of owning such an amazing.... amazing.... work dog. He came into our lifes beaten and broke. He was left alone out here for weeks at a time. No other animals around. Everything we have thrown at him.. all the furbabies.. He has accepted ( with the exception of bosco.. ) He has worked on 3 legs in so much pain. But he has a heart that you can't train.. you can't even BREED this into him. I know when the time comes he will die doing what he loves to do. Even though he comes in the house at night.. and I try my best to protect him as he gets older. He has the heart of a lion. No matter what he has been through, or what his body tells him. His heart pushes him. He is the smartest dog.. I have had the pleasure to have. Don't get me wrong my pyrs are smart.. But they will chase a pack of coyotes for miles. he will push them far enough away then come home. I have said this before.. He doesn't bark much.. but when he gets barking.. he is telling you grab the gun. He is my warning system. My pyrs bark at coyotes miles away ( their job) But I can let my daughter walk out on our drive way amongst coyotes in the bush and a cougar in our area ( lately) and turn my back. Because I know, Drake is outside.. and nothing is getting near her. He would give his life for the sake of this family and the furbabies. I will argue until I am blue in the face with anyone. These traits he pocesses. He wasn't ever trainned to do what he does. You can't breed that heart into an animal. After all that he has been through prior to being with us.. He keeps giving everything he has, and won't giveup the alpha roll ( hence the problems we have with him and Bosco) LMAO

So don't tell me, My dogs arent worth anything.. cause they don't hold any tittles... Because I will say it now.. and I will stand by their hearts. Because they work every day of their lifes to protect us and our furbabies and you can't train these dogs to die for their family.
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PostSubject: Re: tittles and DOGs   Tue 25 May 2010, 4:17 pm

So there is no misconception.

This post was in regards to tittles on dogs. How we can only prove our love for a dog with a piece of paper.. plus some other comments...... on the other threads............................................


That is all.. time to get ready for work
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PostSubject: Re: tittles and DOGs   Tue 25 May 2010, 6:11 pm

cheers
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PostSubject: Re: tittles and DOGs   Wed 26 May 2010, 1:49 am

Well Mini as you know I am into showing, always have been but never have I thought an untitled animal has no worth. My Border Collie is registered and way big also but he wasn't selected as a show prospect but a working dog. He does his job and he does it well similar to your dogs.

When I was 12 years old for my birthday I got my very first horse. I was stupid in hindsight because I had many options and I could have any horse I wanted, it was my choice to go for the white one, an albino of all things was the color I had my heart set on. My parents tried to talk me out of her but stubborn as I was with The Lone Ranger's horse..high ho Silver and Away etc. Embarassed I just had to have the white filly. I trained her all myself and was very proud if her Lone Ranger rear...yup actually did something that stupid (dam TV) lol. My parents hauled her and me to riding lessons, Pony Club, 4H events and horse shows.

When I think back I have such fond memories of her, she was a kick ass gymkana horse because she was only 14 HH and moved like a rocket. I won gymkana queen with her but I got interested more in doing eventing and the more we competed she was just too small to do the big jumps at the level I wished to upgraded to. Next horse was a giant, 17:2 HH, Thoroughbred/Saddlebred cross when I was 14 years old and he was a veteran at 11. He was awesome and could clear 5 feet with big air. He covered ground like nobody business and I put a lot of conditioning on him and switched to competitive trail riding and we won the junior division and went Hi Point. In 1974 I competed for Rodeo Queen for the Canadian National Rodeo and had just the two horses. My mare was injured with a bruised sole from a rock and my gelding was just to large to use( the judges expect one not to need a mounting or a lift up at my height) so I had an offer from one of my competitive trail riding buddy to borrow his Arab mare for the queen competition and I was hooked on Arabs. It evolved from there and horse # 3 was a big Arabian stallion purchase and was then I began studying pedigrees up the whazzo and spent a another decade getting serious about horse breeding.

In 1984 I bought my daughter a Welsh pony mare and we showed as a family and by that time I thought of breeding her mare with an outstanding pedigree. Purchased a stallion who excelled in both performance, ridden and driving that was campaigned in Canada and the USA and won Grand Champion in both countries. I am not embarrassed to be a show person, it has been a lot of fun and goals met. I like doing things with my critters...conformation titles are a bonus.

Back to dogs, I am just no longer capable physically to show my horses like I once did so like so many like myself getting on in age and not so flexible any more I like to compete with my dogs. The amusing truth when in agility classes is that was surprising lot of them are ex horse show people getting up in age and can't move as fast as once we did.

One thing, to me, is that with my slower pace dog campaigning is that I intend not to make the same errors I did with the horses at the beginning. I don't even know if my bitch will be bred but I am concidering it. If not she has a lot of potential for agility and a host of other CKC offered performance show events that we can persue, she's still a youngster. I don't understand why people who show purebreds are so unpopular? Not saying that you implied that but you have read the other forum. Smile Smile Smile
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PostSubject: Re: tittles and DOGs   Wed 26 May 2010, 2:21 am

ahh pooper.. I have nothing against show people... Only ones that show pyrs.. and then try to pawn them off as working dogs. In my experience. they are 2 different breeds.

But what I did have a problem with is that post about to tittle a dog.. it is the greatest memorial you can have for a dog.

And a couple of other comments in regards to all dogs need to have several of tittles. To me these are blank statements in regards to all breeds of dogs.

I think their is a stigmy that goes with dog show dogs. ( not saying it is true) but maybe that is why people think the way they do. I think mcauley nailed in on the head in that post. I hate when people say my dog is better then your dog kind of posts. Each breed and each dog is different. To each individual they are special in their own way. Depending on what is required of them.

I have no problems with showing dogs.. None once so ever.. But when people distinguish a dogs worth or how much you love your dogs if you tittle them.. Makes my skin crawl. Hence my post... I wanted to go on their and rip some of the comments apart. Even more so with " working dogs being tittled to prove their worth."

But pooper how do I prove my dogs worth in a ring. I can't. All I can say- I haven't lost one animal. ( knock on wood- minus the cats) to predators. When my neighbors just down the road have been loosing calves and lambs.

IMO-my dogs are worth their weight in gold.. like everyone elses dogs. My Pyrs are no better then anyone dogs. Shit put them in a ring.. and they would sit there and laugh at you... Shit, if the judge were to feel gunners balls. He might just pee on them... LMAO. They wouldn't be great pets. Crap they don't shake a paw. Hubby taught gunner how to hug. They are good on a leash.. sit.. and lay down.. Stay is a different story. Most peoples pets are better trainned then my pyrs. But I don't need them to shake a paw.. roll over.. Fetch and do all these neat tricks. I have nothing against tricks ( don't take it that way) BUt because they don't heal on command or do anything of that sort. I have different trainning techniques with all of my dogs. (Most people would not understand- I know you do pooper.) Does that make me a poor owner. In some peoples minds yes. Should I not breed them ( I AM NOT-) because they don't have tittles behind their names. Because in some peoples eyes.. they are worthless. But they aren't. Just because they don't have some sort of tittle.. doesn't make them any less important. I hope my comments make sense.. and why my panties are in a bunch.

But what they can do- IMO far outweighs any tittle in the ring. They can save your livestock. They will die to protect their herd ( including human babies) and no tittle will prove their worth to breed. I don't need a memorial of a piece of paper to prove I love my dogs or for them to prove their love of me. They do it every day. My working dogs.


I hope this makes sense.. as I am a little tired.
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PostSubject: Re: tittles and DOGs   Wed 26 May 2010, 2:23 am

oh I forgot to add.. Pooper, shit your working dog.. is so well trainned LMAO.. he would run circles around my goof balls.. LMAO...

I couldn't get them to fetch me a lead rope. They would look at me like I am nuts.. HA HA HA HA
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PostSubject: Re: tittles and DOGs   Wed 26 May 2010, 7:50 am

Oh Pooper I hope you didn't think I was against showing I am not . My comments were only that there is just as much value to a well bred pet as a show quality pet .
I loved my years showing horses , my parents were able to spend hours with me and in the end that is what all children want . I love my parents for it , kept me off the streets and in the barns on the farm .
We use to have a commercial that would come on every night at 11p and it would ask Parents Do You Know Where Your Children Are ? Every time it aired I would hear my Dad chuckle he would say yes worn out and in bed .
I admire all people who have the dedication to train and compete I for one know it is not a easy thing to do it takes hour and hours to do it right . And a big ass pile of money.
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PostSubject: Re: tittles and DOGs   Wed 26 May 2010, 10:54 am

I'm at work typing this, my apologies if it looks rushed or doesn't make a lot of sense.

I have a great respect for those who show and work their dogs in the show ring. It's not as easy as dog handlers make it look out in the ring.

I also don't think a papered dog is any better than a non-papered dog. Up until my current dog and the two senior cats I own (one who recently passed away earlier this year), all my pets (cat and dogs) have been strays off the street. Living in the country, if you want a pet, just wait and there is some idiot out there who will dump a perfectly good pet on your property.

Like I mentioned in the other forum. If I were looking for a LSG dog, then I wouldn't go to a show breeder, I would look for a farmer who breeds them (papered or not) who has proven dogs and most importantly who health tests their breeding dogs for the top 3 to 5 genetic defects that plague that breed. As there are no tests other than real life that can prove that the LSG dog can do the job it was bred to do. To me genetic health testing is very important, no matter what a person is breeding. Doesn't mean I think non-genetic health tested dogs are better than genetic health tested dogs.

There are some breeders who may come off as having a very strong opinion and to a point I can see their side of why they feel the way they do. Especially when it comes to the big powerful breeds. I don't know what things are like in other breeds, but in the Rottweiler world, I have seen members on another forum have to make a heartbreaking decision to put their pet store bought Rottweiler to sleep at 12 to 24 months of age, or the cute little Rott puppy from your local newspaper ad because it a danger to the public. These are owners who are not new to owning big powerful dogs, have done all the right training and NILIF but you can not train out extreme shyness, extreme fear, or extreme aggression from an extremely fearful or extremely shy dog or extremely aggressive dog. That's genetics due to poor breeding. IMO you can do everything right, spend thousands of dollars in dog trainers and behaviourists, but you cannot train poor genetics out of a dog. You can only better manage the dog to not put them into situations where they can be set up to fail.

Also in Rottweiler world, there are many many Rotts that end up in shelters and rescues. They are not an easy breed to rehome and even the most friendly Rott that ends up in some shelters are euthanized because there are shelters that have a very strict policy that Rottweilers and Pitbulls no matter how friendly are not to be adopted out. Some are purchased from breeders who thought putting two Rotts together would be a nice money grab and make cute puppies. But when those cute puppies mature and start to look more like black and tan hounds rather than Rottweilers, some owners choose to dump them or surrender them to a shelter because they do not look like the breed they wanted. Even though the dogs are purebred.

The reason why some show / working breeders push for getting a dog from a breeder who titles their breeding dogs and health tests them is to ensure the puppies being bred from their choice of breed are not mentally unstable and the owners don't end up on the 6 o'clock news because their dog mauled some child, or neighbour, or some neighbour's dog. I don't think majority of them feel papered dogs are better, though reading their posts it may come across that way. They just want to make sure that dogs being intentionally bred have a stable temperament and do not become a danger to society.

Just my 2 cents.
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PostSubject: Re: tittles and DOGs   Wed 26 May 2010, 11:10 pm

I have nothing against any kind of show animal. I have no experience in dogs, but I have alot in horses (from years past doing equestrian). My take on it is this, so many people admire "show" quality of anything...whether it be a K9, a horse, a cat or a cow. Why?...because it is obedient, and acts accordingly (ok...sometimes the horses can be a little high-strung). Though I have a working dog, and not a show dog (although he comes from show lines), what many fail to realize, is this....anything (whether it be show, working, whatever) takes work. People seem to drool at a well behaved anything. This training does not come overnight, nor is an animal automatically born with it (although some can stack pretty nice naturally).

I believe every animal has a purpose on this earth. Some need more help than others, in bringing out their best qualities, but I think it's a humans responsibility to bond, teach...whatever with an animal.

Sometimes I hear people say, "oh, what a smart dog". Hhhmmmm....well, yes...maybe, but a brain like any other needs to be worked, challenged and exercised. All animals are smart....it's just the limitations we put on them, that can sometimes make them "dumb".
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PostSubject: Re: tittles and DOGs   Thu 27 May 2010, 12:56 am

feathers wrote:
Oh Pooper I hope you didn't think I was against showing I am not . My comments were only that there is just as much value to a well bred pet as a show quality pet .
I loved my years showing horses , my parents were able to spend hours with me and in the end that is what all children want . I love my parents for it , kept me off the streets and in the barns on the farm .
We use to have a commercial that would come on every night at 11p and it would ask Parents Do You Know Where Your Children Are ? Every time it aired I would hear my Dad chuckle he would say yes worn out and in bed .
I admire all people who have the dedication to train and compete I for one know it is not a easy thing to do it takes hour and hours to do it right . And a big ass pile of money.

I so very much agree about the worn out and in bed statement. I was having trouble translating this though..."I could take all my Dogs out to small shows and get them titled , then I could bragg like all the other Paper Hangers ! But I wont . LOL" so I wasn't quite sure how you felt about showing. I totally agree there is much value to a well bred pet!!! and have owned many unknown history critters of many species that I have adored over the years that weren't well bred. Smile Smile Smile
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PostSubject: Re: tittles and DOGs   Thu 27 May 2010, 1:14 am

K-Flash wrote:
I have nothing against any kind of show animal. I have no experience in dogs, but I have alot in horses (from years past doing equestrian). My take on it is this, so many people admire "show" quality of anything...whether it be a K9, a horse, a cat or a cow. Why?...because it is obedient, and acts accordingly (ok...sometimes the horses can be a little high-strung). Though I have a working dog, and not a show dog (although he comes from show lines), what many fail to realize, is this....anything (whether it be show, working, whatever) takes work. People seem to drool at a well behaved anything. This training does not come overnight, nor is an animal automatically born with it (although some can stack pretty nice naturally).

I believe every animal has a purpose on this earth. Some need more help than others, in bringing out their best qualities, but I think it's a humans responsibility to bond, teach...whatever with an animal.

Sometimes I hear people say, "oh, what a smart dog". Hhhmmmm....well, yes...maybe, but a brain like any other needs to be worked, challenged and exercised. All animals are smart....it's just the limitations we put on them, that can sometimes make them "dumb".

I agree with your post. Often my animals are so "smart" that they continually make me look like the "dummy". Perform perfectly when nobody is around to see and make me look like the worst trainer in the world once in a while. Very similar to what kids do unexpectedly...when my daughter was 3 a very good friend I hadn't seen for a few years stopped by for a visit with her same aged little boy. Out of the blue, my daughter made the most unusual statement... Embarassed Too funny now but she said to him..."Shut up stupid fat face" Shocked Shocked Shocked Life has it's turns to manage to keep you humble. Smile Smile Smile
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