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mcpug
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PostSubject: Using punishment in training   Mon 06 Jun 2011, 11:22 am

So we are training (2 dogs now) in protection sports (schH)

We have a really nice club with a master trainer and a few helpers.

They use motivational methods which I like but I have a question and want to know if anyone agrees or disagrees since this is kind of a different training style for me.

anyways we had a beginners seminar with the master trainer and he talked about using punishment, he said its only reserved for absolute NO NO's from the dogs, but he said that you must go above what you think will work (ie make the punishment more then what you think because if you go less then it only makes you repeat the punishment over and over) IE if you have to do it more then twice its not intense enough, because it forces you to just use more and more punishment instead of just getting it done the first time and not going back again.

They are physical punishments (kicking, grabbing face and screaming, hitting under the chin ect)

But I have seen them employed by some of the more advanced teams and they do work, and they work the first time.

And we are dealing with working dogs (bulldogs, sheps, dobes ect)

Everything else is good, they use motivational methods for foundational training and then corrections to proof (all the normal stuff) but some of the dogs are very intense. Anyways it not normally what I would do, but it also makes analytical sense to me especially when dealing with strong breeds.

Thoughts?
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Jerseyfivedogs
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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Mon 06 Jun 2011, 4:05 pm

I would never want to take part in any type of training that involved "kicking, grabbing face and screaming, hitting under the chin ect"
I couldn't imagine kicking my dog.
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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Mon 06 Jun 2011, 4:14 pm

When we first got Tank we had went to a trainer that believed in the positive and negative training. When Tank and her dog fought, she took him and hung him from his collar... that was the end of training and I was so upset I cried all the way home.

I will never do anything to Tank or any other animal that could be deemed abuse. I won't judge people that feel its the way to train their dogs, but they sure as shit won't be training mine that way.

I think if you are getting an uneasy feeling about it, its not the way to go.

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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Wed 08 Jun 2011, 8:44 am

Any training that involves hitting, kicking and screaming is not for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Wed 08 Jun 2011, 9:16 am

Never would I work with anyone that wanted me to use excessive force on my dogs,kicking or hitting them,I just feel it isn't neccessary,they are mine to protect and keep safe not abuse

Mine do will,because they are small. with picking them up by the scruff of their necks and telling them NO.

Boston has learned the word "shame" he hates being put in "shame" which only consists of me putting him beside me and making him stay there until he settles down

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mcpug
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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Wed 08 Jun 2011, 2:26 pm

Just to be fair he didn't say that I had to use it, it was just during a seminar he was explaining it.

The one time I saw it being used was when one of the dogs growled and tried to bite the handler, he kicked the dog away and screamed at it.

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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Wed 08 Jun 2011, 9:00 pm

When the dog tried to bite the handler, was it the handlers dog?
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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Wed 08 Jun 2011, 10:08 pm

McPug, It's good to know that if you decide to train with that club that you don't have to use those techniques (ie. kicking, grabbing at the face, screaming, etc...) if you don't want to.

Three of my neighbours trained their dogs in that style (two have GSDs, the other a Rottweiler). I would never trust those dogs around my kids, because of the training style used on them, they are so aggressive towards people and other dogs when their owner is not around. They actually add more fuel to the BSL fire.

I would rather have a dog that was trained in positive reinforcement, I'm not 100% positive reinforcement because I believe there are times that a leash correction is needed. But only a leash correction and not the hitting, kicking, and screaming stuff. I would rather have a dog, that if my dog escaped my property and approached a stranger, the stranger would not get bitten because I wasn't there to control my dog who has now turned HA because of an aggressive training method I chose to try. If their training techniques are not pushed on you and they have other reasonable methods that you are comfortable with trying, should something not work, then I say go ahead and give training with them a try.
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mcpug
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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Thu 09 Jun 2011, 9:46 pm

Yes it was the handlers dog, the dog has a high fight drive and is too much dog for the average person. But he is an awesome working dog.

But I know this particular dog would not do well with 100% positive training, it just wouldn't work.

My dogs are puppies, plus they are not as high drive as a lot of the other dogs. I haven't corrected my dogs at all and have not been instructed too. Our trainer really doesn't tell us what to do, he just makes suggestions and if you choose to follow them that's your choice, but he is not my way or the highway type of trainer which I really like.

Plus we are talking about sound dogs, I think there is a difference. You can't train a sensitive/nervous dog in SchH it just doesn't work. All of the dogs are sharp or hard to some degree (some more then others)

Someone from our club just got her SchH 3 with her Giant Schnauzer, he took the decoy down in the blind search lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Fri 10 Jun 2011, 10:13 am

I don't get it. I really don't. I have an aggressive dog to strangers. He is not hard to control. I don't think creating fear in a dog due to delievering harsh punishments is the way.. kicking ect.. The dog may obey out of fear of punishment but in my opinion you don't want them to obey because they are scared of you. Respect and fear in the trainning world are 2 different things IMO

I have had some wicked dog fights here.. and we are not talking little scuffles either. I have seen what abuse and sever physical punishment can do to a good working dog.. to the point it takes years to try and correct but the fear is always there. I think that using punishment creates an unstable dog..

I don't buy into a high fight drive and a dog bites their handler. I actually might call Bs on that. I have pulled 2 massive dogs away from each other... both with my pyrs when gunner was alive and drake and bosco.. Stood in the middle of them.. Yes a huge no no.. one time I even used a calf sled- not to hit them but to cover Bosco so I can get a grip on the collars. I have never been bit. I had fear when going in to break up a fight because you never know.. but I do think my dogs respect me enough.

Do I use my mommies voice on them.. LMFAO yuppers.... have I grabbed their collars yup... Have I kicked them.. alpha rolled them... NOPE... are they advanced protection dogs.. NOPE.. but are they protective.. HOly hanna sometimes too much.. Just my thoughts... fear creates unstable dogs even humans.. why use it.. If you can not handle your dog and have to use harsh punishments then you shoudln't have that damn dog in the first place.

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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Fri 10 Jun 2011, 10:37 am

The line from A Bronx Tale keeps coming back to me when I read this thread..."They don't respect him, they fear him"

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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Fri 10 Jun 2011, 6:57 pm

Mini wrote:
Respect and fear in the trainning world are 2 different things IMO

I don't buy into a high fight drive and a dog bites their handler. I actually might call Bs on that.

fear creates unstable dogs even humans.. why use it.. If you can not handle your dog and have to use harsh punishments then you shoudln't have that damn dog in the first place.


+1

My neighbours who each have a GSD have dogs of sound temperament. They are by no means fear aggressive or shy. Very bold temperaments. If my two neighbours hadn't bought into the idea of hitting, kicking and screaming at them as a means of training, those dogs today wouldn't be aggressive. IMO, a dog with a stable temperament would not even think about biting the hand that feeds them.

I don't know if you guys remember ABFun who used to be a member on the Kijiji side for a short while there. She's big on training and competing in the sport of Schutzhund. I was mentioning to her about a club she used to train at, a dog there that was similar to what McPug was describing. She told me that there are some dogs that compete in the sport that don't have a sound temperament, but are able to mask certain behaviours to get by and pass. It's like what I've been seeing in the CGN tests, dogs who pass and pass a therapy dog test, and a year later have a bite history because they are not as stable as the majority thinks. They are just able to mask certain behaviours to get by passing. Then there are some dogs who fail the CGN test, who really do have stable temperaments just can't get by one or two of the test requirements to pass. IDK

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mcpug
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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Fri 10 Jun 2011, 7:15 pm

We are not talking about punishment based training (compulsion), I think this post has gotten lost along the way.

And yes you can get a NERVOUS dog past a judge and people do it all the time, but these dogs are nervous genetically, they are nervous as puppies, has nothing to do with training. Usually their prey drive carries them through their nervousness, and that is not a sound dog that should be participating in protection sports.

Nobody wants a nervous dog, its not desired to have a nervous dog competing in protection sports.

Is a dog with a high fight drive ideal for protection sports? probably not, but its better then a nervous dog. The dog works fine he just likes to challenge his handler, high social pack order is a desired trait for sports dogs, it gives them the edge they need to do the man work.

Again I think this post has been pushed and pulled into something that its not.

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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Fri 10 Jun 2011, 7:46 pm

All that matters is if your dogs are benefiting from this training. If it works for you and you can adapt your own techniques then go for it.

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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Fri 10 Jun 2011, 8:52 pm

mcpug wrote:
We are not talking about punishment based training (compulsion), I think this post has gotten lost along the way.

And yes you can get a NERVOUS dog past a judge and people do it all the time, but these dogs are nervous genetically, they are nervous as puppies, has nothing to do with training. Usually their prey drive carries them through their nervousness, and that is not a sound dog that should be participating in protection sports.

Nobody wants a nervous dog, its not desired to have a nervous dog competing in protection sports.

Is a dog with a high fight drive ideal for protection sports? probably not, but its better then a nervous dog. The dog works fine he just likes to challenge his handler, high social pack order is a desired trait for sports dogs, it gives them the edge they need to do the man work.

Again I think this post has been pushed and pulled into something that its not.


Okay so kicking a dog.. is what.. in my world of definitions that is punishment.. How would kicking and screaming fall into a trainning category. .I believe their are far better ways to gain a dogs respect.. to prove your alpha roll then using physical punishment. I use my voice. Always have.. Is this the best way.. No it is not.. however- would I kick punch my dog to get my desired results.. NOT...

There is only one reason I would use physical force.. if my dogs hit or attacked a human being without being provoked. Even when I was having some wicked fights.. I never used physical force.. I had both dogs by the collar.. a 260 pound and a 100 pound separating them.. when the 100 pound wanted to rip into the others throat. Head to toe in blood splatter I was.. AND I still did NOT kick.. scream.. punch... hit... physical hurt the dogs in any way.

Are you saying that a nervous dog will bite the handler.. I am not sure of the point you are trying to make?
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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Fri 10 Jun 2011, 9:38 pm

mcpug wrote:
We are not talking about punishment based training (compulsion), I think this post has gotten lost along the way.

And yes you can get a NERVOUS dog past a judge and people do it all the time, but these dogs are nervous genetically, they are nervous as puppies, has nothing to do with training. Usually their prey drive carries them through their nervousness, and that is not a sound dog that should be participating in protection sports.

Nobody wants a nervous dog, its not desired to have a nervous dog competing in protection sports.

Is a dog with a high fight drive ideal for protection sports? probably not, but its better then a nervous dog. The dog works fine he just likes to challenge his handler, high social pack order is a desired trait for sports dogs, it gives them the edge they need to do the man work.

Again I think this post has been pushed and pulled into something that its not.


It got pushed and pulled???

You asked a question.
You got answers.
Nobody pushed or pulled a thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Fri 10 Jun 2011, 9:43 pm

I re read what you wrote and I still don't know what you are trying to say.
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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Fri 10 Jun 2011, 9:50 pm

They are physical punishments (kicking, grabbing face and screaming, hitting under the chin ect) you wrote that.

That isn't punishment? (but you use the word punishment)

Go kick a person- see what they do back.


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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Fri 10 Jun 2011, 10:15 pm

Considering the title of this thread is punishment for training I find it hard to believe this thread went off topic.

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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Fri 10 Jun 2011, 10:34 pm

It didn't go off topic.
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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Sat 11 Jun 2011, 12:34 am

BigBrownEyes29 wrote:
Mini wrote:
Respect and fear in the trainning world are 2 different things IMO

I don't buy into a high fight drive and a dog bites their handler. I actually might call Bs on that.

fear creates unstable dogs even humans.. why use it.. If you can not handle your dog and have to use harsh punishments then you shoudln't have that damn dog in the first place.



+1

My neighbours who each have a GSD have dogs of sound temperament. They are by no means fear aggressive or shy. Very bold temperaments. If my two neighbours hadn't bought into the idea of hitting, kicking and screaming at them as a means of training, those dogs today wouldn't be aggressive. IMO, a dog with a stable temperament would not even think about biting the hand that feeds them.

I don't know if you guys remember ABFun who used to be a member on the Kijiji side for a short while there. She's big on training and competing in the sport of Schutzhund. I was mentioning to her about a club she used to train at, a dog there that was similar to what McPug was describing. She told me that there are some dogs that compete in the sport that don't have a sound temperament, but are able to mask certain behaviours to get by and pass. It's like what I've been seeing in the CGN tests, dogs who pass and pass a therapy dog test, and a year later have a bite history because they are not as stable as the majority thinks. They are just able to mask certain behaviours to get by passing. Then there are some dogs who fail the CGN test, who really do have stable temperaments just can't get by one or two of the test requirements to pass. IDK


I was observing large powerful breeds last week in our CGN class last week. Was the only one with small breed dogs so it couldn't be helped lol! I do agree a well tempered dog would never think of biting the hand that feeds it. I propose you gals are dead on in the statements I highlighted.

There were two rings running at the same time so there was lots to watch. I think that iffy tempered dogs can always be a danger no matter the breed. Don't much agree with using abuse as a training technique.
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PostSubject: Re: Using punishment in training   Mon 13 Jun 2011, 11:56 am

From what I have learned coming into clubs and working with different trainers is that you have to know what is comfortable for you. You also have to be your animals advocate. If you find yourself in a group that is doing things that dont sit well with you then find a new group. There are lots out there. My dogs get the finger lol if they are cheeky I point at them...melts them every time haha. I think it is probably easier to train my dogs when I live in the sticks and they never really leave here though.
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