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Mini
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Fri 14 Jan 2011, 6:17 pm

Okay going from what my vet just told me.. I know you are all.. hating all of my posts.. but I am going to give a go at being a critical thinker....

i am going to highlight my points...plus discuss with me..... really.. it is interesting..

i am going to pick apart the last couple of paragraphs...... based on what I just learned.... okay... and keep in mind this is from a vet.. who doesn't care about the size of his wallet.. he actually cares about the animals.. and in turn he is successful in his wallet... but at low costs so we can afford medical care.. he has done so much pro bono work as well... but.., here goes..


This was not the case a short 20 years ago. I have also spoken with many vets who have practiced longer than I and their response is the same. They did not see the level of chronic illness, nor the resistant and concretized type of illnesses that we see today. Great point.. however,,, isn't cancer at a going rate in human population as well.. are we not seeing so many more diseases then we did. should we blame everything on vacinnes. lets not forget about enviromental factors such as our sun,,, our water, chemicals in the air.. the food they eat.. why are we pinning everything just on vacinnies. In order to do this.. you would have to have a perfect specimen of a dog. perfect enviroment.. in order to make such a blanket statement without any scientific prove. this is just an opinion. Nothing more. Problem is people are going to take this..and belief it.. without looking deeper into the issue. Not

Because I am able to use homeopathic remedies to help resolve these effects of the vaccines I am able to see first hand the cause-effect relationship. Again in a scientific experiment this would not work. cause and effect. You have to have a controlled enviroment. HOW DOES this person know that what she sees is soleby based because the dogs have been vacinated. what about poor genetics.. what about whether these dogs come from bad breedings and most of these aliments were because of poor genetics. using a blanket statement without scientific prove.. puts her in the same category as those vets who want to make money. I want the proof and because there is no way she can factually prove this - then why should I believe this statement over my vets who has never bullshitted me and if I asked him he would show me the proof.

I have also looked at the info of those who have come before me to help in this process. One such person was J. Compton Burnett, a British physician of the late 1800s and early 1900s. Burnett was a proponent of the smallpox vaccine until he started noticing that the vaccines given to young people in the prime of their lives were causing many 'other' health problems. He coined the term 'vaccinosis' to describe the illnesses caused by vaccines, separate from the illnesses they were protecting against. Much of what Burnett saw closely resembles what we see today in our animals. This is interesting how this human model is actually teaching us about what happens with animals. What is it teaching. where are the studies that are animal related.. because animals and humans are different. If our reactions were the same and body chemistry then you with animal research if mice react one way. it would be educated to say that humans would react the same way with every drug that is given? would it not?Burnett further verified his hypothesis by giving the homeopathic remedy, Thuja, to many of these vaccinated individuals, as was described by Hahnneman. He was able to reverse many of these harmful effects. This is still a widely used remedy for the effects of vaccines. Excellent words on a screen.. now.. like my vet has proofed to me. you can not compare animals to humans.. I want to see the studies. I know for a fact. medically speaking.. that some things work for some people based on body chemicals while not work for other people. There is more scientific proof for my theroy.
Alternatives
Remember, the body has incredible capacity to provide protection against all sorts of invaders. So, if our approach to protection is from the standpoint of supporting the body in doing its job, which it already knows how to do, we are working at a more fundamental level. If we support the energy and physical systems of the body we will support the immune system, not overload it. Clean hygiene, good nutrition, clean water, plenty of exercise, constitutional treatments (preferably homeopathic), So in this statement are you encouraging people to seek out homopatheic vets.. so you are going against your theory that vets won't change it affects the pocket books I agree... but by convincing people to go homepathetic affects your pocket book right- do you also advise your clients on adverse effects of homepatheic measures.. because I assure you- as a student nurse- we take on a holistic approach including rememdies and I am studying some homeopatheic remedies right now.. and yes it is natural but they also have dramatic side effects.. but for advertise purposes the public has the misconception that when things are natural means they are good for you. But you can have a toxic resistance to certain fat soluable vitamins if taken in great dosages. I was under the impressuion they are vitamins.. natural won't hurt you... WRONG good breeding practices, and homeopathic nosodes,( so what are in nosodes.. and the homepathetic nodules have adverse effects when treating dogs with other diseases using chemicals. where needed. This all sounds very simplistic and, in fact, it is!( You are so right.. this is our body's first line of defense. but here is the problem. we teach our children not to go around and kiss strangers because of diseases.. but yet it is perfectly natural for our dogs to sniff other dogs butts at the dog park. So with my knowledge of how pathogens go into the body. Lets see feces is one of the prime hosts of pathogens. The mucosa.glands which occupy the nose of the dogs.. is a great entral point. so since this is a habbit.. in order to have perfect hygen and insure we help protect our dogs. they are not allowed.. to sniff other dogs butts. further more.. when our body tries to get rid of pathogens,,,, it does so in waste. such as infected dogs.. may be a carrier but will not show s and s of the symptoms. That pathogen is excreted out of feces. Now it is a proven fact that pathogens from feces can then go back into the systems re enter the host. So this means we can no longer allow our dogs to lick themselves as well. I know I am using humor but I swear this is prove and I am trying to get everyone to think outside the box.Should you decide to use nosodes they must be used under the guidance of a qualified vet(yes.. so it has to be a homopatheic vet- aligning pocket books), just as with any medication. Nosodes are homeopathic remedies made from the diseased products of whatever disease you are wanting to protect against. For distemper, nasal discharge is used. For parvo, fecal material is used.( even better so did you hear about BSE.. the outbreak was used with fecal matter.. ) These are subsequently filtered, and sterilized, diluted and succussed as any homeopathic remedy and are administered orally. I use them starting at 7-9 weeks and continue for the first year of life only. They cannot be used for rabies licensing.
Nosodes provide protection by stimulating a non-specific immunological response. They fill the susceptibility the animal has to the disease without actually producing antibodies. If that susceptibility is filled, much like a cup of coffee to the brim, then nothing else can come in and fill it up. You can't be over-susceptible. In my practice nosodes are very effective with the exception of animals with chronic illness and poor breeding practices. The primary nosodes I use are for the life threatening diseases such as parvo, distemper, and panleukopenia. I will also use bordatella for animals in kennel situations.( now I want to bang my head against the wall... all of this article is .. when I really want to anayze it..is promoting her own practice. I am not against stuff like this.. But in order to make a good solid decision I would like information from anyone that is unbiased.. the more I read.. this is very biased.. I understand this is a blog.. nothing directs you to scientific studies...I should be studying my own school work right now.. lol.. but this has me hot under the collar)
If You Do Vaccinate
If you choose to vaccinate, please be careful. My recommendations are as follows: wait until 14 weeks for puppies and kittens, until the maternal antibodies are no longer present. If you must use something before 14 weeks, use nosodes; after 14 weeks, give one MLV parvo/distemper combination for dogs; for cats, give one panleukopenia, and one rabies vaccine at least two weeks after the above.
OR:
One distemper at 12 weeks, followed by one parvo at 14 weeks (these are the single vaccines and are the best, but often difficult to find). All other vaccines, except rabies, I cannot recommend, period.
Other Issues
We have yet to discuss the topic of rights, animal rights, and guardian rights. This is one you can play with on your own.
Additionally, we have yet to talk about the laws that mandate rabies requirements that don't reflect the current science. I hope to see these laws changed as there is more info form the duration of immunity studies.( I would too.. if it is forthe benefit of the dog based on studies.. and not based on the fact that if they do change your practice will benefit) It will be up to the grassroots movement to initiate this as most vet associations will not support a law that will hurt the pocketbooks of the vets.( what a hypocritical statement.. seriously... read the article.. I love information.. I don't care what anyone does.. but this whole thing is biased.. there are no links to factual information.. no studies... just words...damn that vet.. he got me thinking.... but he is right.. and he has never lied to me ever..)So, you can see there is quite a bit of info to assimilate, and there is more! With this, I believe there is enough to shed some light on a topic that even confuses most vets.










OMG I can't read anymore.... Now first I am not against use of natural products.. I would be a hyporcrite. I really would. But the more I learn in school.. the more I question alot of things.. I don't know if it is a good thing.. cause I am an out of the box thinker....

I would like you all to think this through for yourselve. Make your own decisions.. based on fact.. not based on words..

Now I don't have a lot of time lately.. and no offense I should be studying for my pharma ( drug exam) that actually has a couple of chapters on natural healing... not negative either..... but please think about a couple of things..

this women.. won't do rabies.. which is one of the most worrisome virus's out there.. I wonder because it is not species specific... and to claim she can do it.. could see her in a court of law... there is too much non proof.. I read all of this.. and at first read.. i thought it made sense.. I would love to blame my fathers death on something.. it would provide me closure.. or blame the ill health of one of my animals on something.. makes me feel better.. but the fact remains.. our enviroment plays a huge roll.. our genes play a huge roll......... and all this bullshit one vet against another.. in my mind is hypocritical..if this blog took on a roll of education and not trying to lay blame on another parities pocket book would hold more in my mind..

if I presented this whole thing to my vet.. i think he would committ me and tell me to drop out of school.. lol... not saying she is wrong.. because there is a possiblittiy and could be links no doubt.. but to say her way is the be all and end all.. is wrong.. cause my vet uses both ways.. i can't explain it.. arggg.. is all I have to say......

pooper you never mentioned your thoughts.. and I know you are a minimalist...and I understand but you also have fort knox......so what are your thoughts
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Fri 14 Jan 2011, 9:02 pm

k I will repost that last post again.. had yet another conversation with him.. I misunderstood his point.. don't have time right now.. but it is in response to why titer tests are not effective.........or accurate and the ongoing debate... way too much info.. dammit..

do what you all want to do.. ha ha ha.. at this point.. I am going with my vet.. ha ha ha ha
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Fri 14 Jan 2011, 11:14 pm

Lol...Mini I have so distracted you while at school on this, I'm a bad girl...lol. You misread she said..." All other vaccines, except rabies, I cannot recommend, period". This wasn't something I found on the internet, was sent to me by someone I know in the Havanese world who is friends with the author as we were discussing vaccinations. Yes I know you know I am a minimalist and I really think some good points have been made. I'm not completely against inoculations and think some are necessary especially for young animals to boost their immune systems but I am against over inoculation.

We humans in this house don't get shots as we rely on our immune systems and I lean towards believing my healthy animals immune systems can take care of them also. Unless "I must" I give no shots after the puppy/kitten/ foal years and so far all of them and there have been many have lived disease free to very old ages. When I got the rabies shots I inquired about the dosage and was told that that tiny vial was the same for small and large dogs...I disputed as I know from speaking to my breeder and other small breed breeders that it's too much. This vet told me I was the first person who ever asked such a question. The bordatella for small dogs, the nasal method, also has to be a half dose. My decisions are based on what others have experienced with bad reactions. I agree diet, exercise, environment, exposure risks, plays a huge part in health. I ask questions at the vets all the time sometimes to the point of expressing my feelings for the benefit of what I feel is best for my animals and most of the time they agree with me. I do a lot of my own vetting so to speak as most vets know I am perfectly capable of doing so and supply me with what I require or I can get it from G and E.

I really liked the information for the fact it has what I feel are there valid points presented. I like to chat about things like this that give food for thought as it's not mainstream but makes sense to me in many ways. I like hearing what vets have to say, I like their opinions...the author is also a vet. I have had success with alternative medicines and some day I think there's a happy medium using a combination of everything we know works and tossing whatever is unhealthy old common practices. I listen to everything and then decide the best route IMO to choose.
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Fri 14 Jan 2011, 11:19 pm

BigBrownEyes29 wrote:
I'm not against vaccinations for pets, but I do wonder if vets are over vaccinating them. There was an incident in Ontario a few years ago where a small religious community came down with small pox (I think it was) because they do not believe in vaccinations.

Does a dog need to be vaccinated every year and how come they don't have vaccinations that would at least be good for every 3 years? My vet does yearly rabies vaccines, but is against the 3 year rabies vaccine. Still not 100% why.

Julios vet set it up where the first was for one year and every 3 after that. I wonder too why yours is against the 3 year one.
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Sat 15 Jan 2011, 12:31 am

[quote="pooperscooper"]Lol...Mini I have so distracted you while at school on this, I'm a bad girl...lol. You misread she said..." All other vaccines, except rabies, I cannot recommend, period". This wasn't something I found on the internet, was sent to me by someone I know in the Havanese world who is friends with the author as we were discussing vaccinations. Yes I know you know I am a minimalist and I really think some good points have been made. I'm not completely against inoculations and think some are necessary especially for young animals to boost their immune systems but I am against over inoculation.

We humans in this house don't get shots as we rely on our immune systems and I lean towards believing my healthy animals immune systems can take care of them also. Unless "I must" I give no shots after the puppy/kitten/ foal years and so far all of them and there have been many have lived disease free to very old ages. When I got the rabies shots I inquired about the dosage and was told that that tiny vial was the same for small and large dogs...I disputed as I know from speaking to my breeder and other small breed breeders that it's too much. This vet told me I was the first person who ever asked such a question. The bordatella for small dogs, the nasal method, also has to be a half dose. My decisions are based on what others have experienced with bad reactions. I agree diet, exercise, environment, exposure risks, plays a huge part in health. I ask questions at the vets all the time sometimes to the point of expressing my feelings for the benefit of what I feel is best for my animals and most of the time they agree with me. I do a lot of my own vetting so to speak as most vets know I am perfectly capable of doing so and supply me with what I require or I can get it from G and E.

I really liked the information for the fact it has what I feel are there valid points presented. I like to chat about things like this that give food for thought as it's not mainstream but makes sense to me in many ways. I like hearing what vets have to say, I like their opinions...the author is also a vet. I have had success with alternative medicines and some day I think there's a happy medium using a combination of everything we know works and tossing whatever is unhealthy old common practices. I listen to everything and then decide the best route IMO to choose.
scoop [/quote

well got nothing accomplished.. today.. besides this information.. I don't want to argue points.. because it is frutile.. do I think people over vacinate.. yes..

even more so with kennel cough.. if your dogs aren't in that enviroment then don't vacinate.. I have only vacinated one dog for this..a nd he was going to a kennel.. no other dog has been vacinated in regards to this...

ask yourself why this person, says everything else but rabies... it is an interesting thought.... why distember and not rabies....I understand that this is your friend and a vet..,.. ah never mind I have to go to work... spent way too much on this topic.... i am more interested on the science side of things.. when I have more time.. I think I am going to see my vet and see the studies and the research he talked about
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Sat 15 Jan 2011, 1:09 am

Mini, thanks for taking the time to post, really cool that this same subject is what your course is covering at this time. We all get to learn a tad of what's current...nice. I have no intention of arguing, just sharing back and forth. All that has been written is a LOT of info and I haven't absorbed it all yet and I'm not as pressed for time as you are. I have to go back and read for the seventh time at least what I posted...covers lots of territory. You're sooo busy with your studies, don't worry about any of this. Undoubtably you will have more to add in future when you courses progress and have more "shares". You're going to be a great nurse...I love people who think out of the box. 8)
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Sun 16 Jan 2011, 1:35 pm

pooper, the only problem I see, and I know how people perceive information and then believe it is all word...

The reason your vet can not do rabies.. is because she would have to inject the live rabies vacine into a dog,, in order to process the fecal.. but rabies attacks the CNS system.. I would have to research to see if the virus gets excretes in the fecal matter.

Also the huge problem with titer tests as per my vet and they are a waste of time. a titer tests the amount of antibodies in a unit of blood. Now if you were to vacinate your dog and 2 weeks later.. you performed a titer test then you would see high levels of antibodies. If your dog were to come in contact with a virus then you would see, high levels as their body is producing more antibodies to fight off certain virus's that they come into contact with. If by chance that your dog was vacinated 3 years ago and you perform the titer test. It may show no antibodies in the blood. We and animals have what is called memory cells. This is our third line of defence in our body's natural ability to fight off pathogens. These cells are inactive until they recognize that a certain virus has broken the our first line of defense which is our skin, mucosa ect... Once the pathogen breaks through. The memory cells go into high drive and start producing antibodies like wild fire. So in animals and humans, we may see symptoms or may not of things we have been vacinated for a short period of time, it depends on how fast our memory cells recognize and start producing the antibodies. However, if a titer test is performed and no antibodies are found in the blood, this does not mean that the animal or human is not protected, it also means that another vacination is not needed. It may just mean that human/animal has not come into contact for that virus.. and the antibodies are in hibernation. so this is like a double edged sword.. because people could vacinate because they deem the animal has no antibodies when they are fully protected. or they won't vacinate because they assume their animal is protected and the memory cells are in hibernation. it makes sense.. for what I know about memory cells.

Now your vet is incorrect in the statements that the immunglobins human bodies produce our the first line of defense. Such as Igm ect.. this is actually our bodies 2nd line of defense. Those words sound great but you need to understand the science of what each of the function is about.Since that is last semester.. lol... I know.. Science is a complicated world.. I love it... love it...There are 4 levels of acquiring immunity for certain things in humans.. I am assuming dogs and cats are the same.. one way is the mother passing the immunity via placenta or in milk to their offspring, then you have acquired immunity is when you actually become infected and your body produces the antibodies and they are stored in your memory cells, then you have vacination.. there is a 4th one in where antibodies are injected into a person .

your right there is a balance between traditional methods of medicine and homepathy. I couldn't survive without my oil of oregano. I also now deworm all my animals with a natural approach. However, if need be and the natural method does not work- I will go into traditional forms. But pooper like you and me, know alot of the signs and symptoms for our animals based on experience and trial and error. I know my working dogs are more of a high risk for contracting more pathogens then the average pet. They are a high risk category. Since wildlife tend to carry more stuff then your average pet.Do I think most vets over vacinate.. over charge.. over drug.. over prescribe.. YUP.. YUP.. YUP..

A prime example is kennel cough.. like bbe mentioned. I put kennel cough into the flu category. if a dogs immune system is not compromised. their bodies should be able to combat it and acquire active immunity. Just like the flu in the human. if the animals immune system is compromised then you run into complications. Animals are required to get kennel cough vaccines if put into a situation with a lot of different animals because it is highly contagious.. this is also what herd immunity is for. to protect each animal. I will never administer kennel cough. My dogs- even though my one vet argues this with me. do not come into contact other then wild life.. a whole wack of other dogs.

Distemper is another vacine I would recommend. It is highly contagious and deadly. It hits hard and fast and from what I seen a very ugly virus. For her to say distemper is a puppy/kitten disease is wrong. it would be playing russion roulette with your animals. Have the time, it is too late once signs and symptoms are presented.
Years and years ago... we had barn cats... some had their vacines because we could catch them. We had so many ferals living in the barn that didn't have shots..We lost a whole wack of cats- even vacinated ones. Was my first experience that even being vacinated does not guarantee 100 percent immunity. They were of all ages. we had over 5 cats autospied.. and it was distemper... I was devastated. But it opened up a whole new world of knowledge to me.

Parvo is another one- because it is passed through feces of infected birds..and it hits hard.. and if caught on time.. maybe you can save the animal. It is highly contagious and the virus can live on surfaces for a very long time when exposed to oxygen. Once you have had parvo in your kennels or house.. you have to disinfect everything and even then.. you are not sure that you have killed the virus.

Personally I vacinate for all 3 in my working dogs, I do not vacinate every year...My horses I vacinate against west nile, and if I get rescues in.. I would vacinate against everything else. Since I took a break with rescuing.. my horses/donkeys do not come into contact with outside animals...The goats get vacinated every year.. so do the cows.. one reason there is a deadly virus that will kill instantly and it is more proficient in herds.

This goes for all education and research. After reading the article over again.. and again and talking to my one vet. I always compared animals to humans through anatomy.. but realize this is not the case. I critically tried to look at her points... and then put what he taught me about research and what I learn about scientific studies.

The answer is simple and complex. For the whole perspective, animal anatomy and genectically makeup is very different. What we as humans do- and the research done on animals for humans can prove these points. We can not compare humans and animals on a whole. I am afraid to say- all of her studies is based on human research and not on animals. So as a person who needs to question the rellivance of info ( learning that now) to analize and observe everything.

The other comment that really bothered me, like I have mentioned in several of posts.. when she said she has the opportunity to treat these animals who have conditions based on being vacinating. There is no prove of this. There is no way she could scientifically prove these conclusions. So the basis of her making that blanket statement is incorrect. It bothers me, because as a vet. She should know this. No offense pooper it is a propanda statement.

But I do agree there should be a balance in our furbabies and in our lives. In nursing we are trying to use holistic approaches.. boy has things changed from what they were taught only 10 years ago. I am all for the new changes. We are learning medicine, and natural remedies, we are learning how someones spirtituality will help in their healing and their overall health. I think we need to think in the same aspects with our animals as well..
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