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pooperscooper
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PostSubject: Vaccinations   Mon 10 Jan 2011, 11:29 pm

This is going to be a book when I'm done so be warned. Something to ponder...borrowed from another site and as a minimalist I found it interesting.

I myself only believe in giving the necessary shots needed. there are many studies out there that have proven that after the puppy shots and then their one year old booster that the dogs are usually covered for there life. think about it, do you get shots every year? No so then why would we continue to put these shots into out pets? Most of the shots that are given to you pet is of a modify live virus, meaning you are giving them part of the disease, and by doing that you are in layman's terms teaching the body to fight off that virus, well if you go and give them another vaccine for the same thing and their immunity is high, then all you are doing is breaking down that immunity as now the body is fighting off the new live virus that you just injected into them. you are not raising their levels of immunity, but rather breaking it down. Does that make sense?

I will have to break this down into the next 5 posts.

Quote: Vaccines - Are They Safe for Your Dog?

Written by: Dee Blanco who is a holistic veterinarian practicing in Santa Fe, New Mexico. She is listed under Altvetmed.
The questions surrounding the issue of veterinary vaccinations are many. My intent is to open other doors of thought that might help you make your decisions align with your animals well being, your lifestyle, your left and right brain and most importantly - your heart. ... Because I cannot completely separate from this topic, you will clearly hear my bias, my emotions as well as my perspective from my years practicing allopathy and subsequently homeopathy. I will make recommendations based both on this study of many years and on the way I hope to be of help in the world.
I strongly recommend for you to let this info simmer a bit ... please make sure to do more research. And always listen to your inner voice. You are your own authority, you are your animal's primary health care practitioner, on call, 24 hours a day. You may decide some of this info is useful, and some you will let go by. Please make sure you do not allow fear to run your decisions.

I have spent a good amount of time in the last 12 of my 19 years as a vet, studying the issue of vaccinations. During this time, in my holistic vet practice, I have been able to see the clinical manifestations and harmful effects of the use and abuse of vaccinations. I have also been able to see improvements of many common maladies in our domestic animals using holistic medicines, in particular homeopathy. It is from this clinical standpoint as well as my own study of the available info on vaccinations that I present my info. I am continually compiling more info in my 'database', so if you would like to add anything you might have, please feel free to send me your info.

The History of Vaccinations

The birth of vaccinations came when the English doctor Edward Jenner discovered that the people who worked closely with cows seemed to be less susceptible to smallpox. He injected small amounts of the smallpox crusts into healthy individuals (including his own son) and found these people to also be less susceptible to smallpox. Unfortunately, this process may have fatally weakened his son and his son's friends, because he died at the early age of 21 of tuberculosis.
Then, during the American Civil War, Louis Pasteur, an accomplished microbiologist, was able to change the vaccines he was using enough that some of the harmful effects were diminished. He was famous for his work in cattle where he was able to prove that vaccines could protect against the deadly disease, anthrax. Thus, he started the new field of medicine called immunology. Pasteur also became famous for his concept of the 'germ theory'. This is still the theory modern medicine uses to explain all illness. Thus we have created a 'war on bugs' that we seem to be losing. It's interesting to note that on his deathbed Pasteur recanted his prior work of blaming the microorganism. His last words were "seed is nothing, soil is everything". In Chinese medicine we say "it's not the agent, but the terrain". Both are saying the same thing - the germ is nothing, but the host's resistance is everything. These concepts lay the foundation for all forms of holistic medicine.

How Vaccines Work

The primary intention of the vaccine is to produce a stimulation to the cellular immune system, via the production of antibodies. Antibodies attach onto the virus and render it inactive and harmless. It is through this stimulation and resultant production of antibodies that the body is now prepared for a possible 'attack' by 'foreign invaders' later down the line. These invaders are typically known as bacteria or viruses. This immunity will later provide protection without having to go through the disease itself. It's a bit like the vigilant minute-men always on guard for a possible attack. There are problems with this way of thinking which we will discuss later.
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Mon 10 Jan 2011, 11:33 pm

Part II

Quote:
Why Vaccines Cause Problems
Typically, the vaccines are injected into the body; subcutaneously (under the skin) or intramuscularly (in the muscle). These vaccines usually have numerous viruses as well as other ingredients in them. Exceptions to this include the rabies, corona, and bordatella vaccines. Herein lies the second and third problem with the vaccination process.
The process of injecting numerous viruses at one time into the body does not mimic in any way what we would see in the natural world. There would never be such an enormous exposure to that many microorganisms at one time. ... These diseases have never, in the real world, occurred at one time, never. The purpose for which mother nature uses and continues to use acute illness is to thin out the population, whereby the fittest survive. Everything in nature has a rhythm, everything. The rhythm of distemper, of polio, of measles, of influenza, of parvo, of rabies are all on a schedule. This schedule, much to the chagrin of the vet profession, is not determined by the vet profession!
Neil Miller, a father of two, in his desire to understand the issues around vaccinations for his children, decided to explore the issue extensively. He studied the rise and fall and the death rate of the childhood diseases of polio, measles, and whooping cough in both the US and the UK. He compared the death rates and the point at which vaccinations were introduced. Much to his surprise, in all three of these diseases, he saw that the death rates starting in the early 1900s were markedly decreasing by the time the vaccines were introduced. In the case of polio there was actually a bit of an increase after the vaccines. The increased numbers of deaths after polio vaccines were covered up by reclassifying them as aseptic meningitis. Therefore the deaths didn't show up in the records, but it is quite clear that vaccinations did not really have a beneficial impact on the already declining health rate. The reason the diseases were declining had more to do with the increased natural resistance and better understanding about prevention through hygiene.
Thirdly, the process of injecting viruses into the body is a very unnatural method of introducing viruses, with the exception of Rabies virus. Most other forms of exposure are through the mucous membranes - the nose, throat/mouth, even the eyes. This creates another huge insult to the immune system. First we gather a whole bunch of viruses and other 'stuff', then we inject them into the body at one time! I have to ask myself if this could be the start of massive confusion and havoc causing the body to attack itself? In other words, could this be why we are seeing so much autoimmune disease?
Fourth, when these viruses are injected into the body, they find their way into the small capillaries, then into the larger vessels and are filtered by the lymph nodes. This sounds fine except that usually these viruses are first introduced into the mouth and nose, where the humoral immune system is stimulated. It produces the powerful immunoglobulins (IgA, IgG, IgM) which provide the first line of defense.
When this primary defense mechanism of the humoral immune system is bypassed, you are dependent on the cellular immune system only; this is the branch that produces antibodies. Producing antibodies is a fine thing, but when the natural pathways are bypassed it creates an extra load on the system. Having the natural stimulation of both wings of the immune system is a more balanced approach and isn't what happens with injected vaccines.
Last, but certainly not least, are the other substances that are in the vaccine vials that are potentially problematic. This discussion follows.
What Is In A Vaccine?
The two forms of vaccines available are the modified-live (MLV) and the killed vaccine. For obvious reasons, the Rabies vaccine is a killed product ... the MLVs are the viruses that were once alive and now have been chemically attenuated (altered) so that they are still recognized by the body but are, theoretically, not able to cause the full blown clinical disease. Typically, the chemical agent used to alter the virus is formalin or formaldehyde, a known carcinogen. Attenuating the virus so that it cannot attach to a cell wall and infect that cell is a good idea, but not all the virus particles may be altered. Some may escape attenuation and are free to cause disease. This may be part of the reason that we see 'breaks' in vaccinated animals. There has also been much speculation that these MLVs have shed into the environment, exposing other animals, including wild animals, to these diseases.
Additional components of the vaccines are the preservatives that do what preservatives do. These ingredients are also known in current medicine to be carcinogenic agents, including a compound called thymersol, a mercury derivative and aluminum, used to attenuate the viruses. We all know the possible effects of aluminum.
Even the cells these viruses are grown on can produce allergic reactions in the body. Some of the tissue lines used are from ducks, monkeys, pigs, and the like. These could be creating much of the constant itching, inflamed bowel, and eczematous ears that are so prevalent.
There are additional ingredients called adjuvants. These are foreig proteins that are added to give a generic, non-specific immune response. These proteins are proprietary (secret) info and are not given out to anyone. It's much like the ingredients on a bottle of BBQ sauce where they list 'herbs and spices' generically. No one really knows what 'herbs and spices' really means. These preservatives and adjuvants are what are believed to be the major cause of the surging incidence of fibrosarcomas in cats. Studies at Colorado State U. by one of my professors, Dr. Dennis Macy, are showing this strong correlation.
It is felt by the biologics companies that if the body doesn't respond to the numerous viruses that are in each vial of vaccine, than surely the body will respond to other foreign proteins. One rep from a major biologics company, at a meeting on vaccines in 1997 I attended, said quite embarrassed, 'We know how to turn the immune system on, but we don't know how to turn it off". This is the fundamental problem with vaccines: they are generically stimulating to the body, usually creating illness where there once was none.
How Do You Tell If a Vaccine Is Working?
The easiest way to determine if a vaccine is working is to take a blood sample and send it to a lab to determine if there are still circulating antibodies against that virus. This is called an antibody titer. This is a simple test, but there has been some controversy as to what titer level will provide protection from the clinical disease, and what level tells you there has been exposure to the disease.
The next way is to believe the biologics companies. This is not my ideal choice since I believed them many years ago when I would vaccinate animals and they would break out with the disease. Perfectly healthy animals coming down with the diseases they were being vaccinated against! It was embarrassing and horrifying that I caused these illnesses. The biologics companies told me their vaccines could never have caused the illness. They justified this by saying that the animals must have been incubating the illness and it coincidentally came out at the time of the vaccine. This never made sense to me but as a young, brain-washed vet, I passed this info on to the clients. I still to this day find it interesting that we are a self-serving profession creating the illnesses that return later through our doors to be treated again. What could be more self-serving? I believe this is one of the reasons the vet profession turns its back on the issue of vaccinations. It would mean we would have to take a good hard look at what we are doing. It would mean we would have to take responsibility. Enough of my soap box, for now.
One way to determine how long a vaccine is capable of lasting in the body is by duration of immunity studies. These are studies that the biologics companies conduct to determine whether vaccinated animals can withstand a challenge from a live virus contact. The problem here is that there are inadequate duration of immunity studies at this time. These are difficult and expensive test and there has not been enough pressure on these companies to do these tests. One of the reasons is because the profession has assumed that vaccines are harmless and giving repeated doses or annual vaccinations is 'good medicine'.
Because of inadequate studies, the biologics companies are not willing at this point in time to change the recommended protocols. Much info available from numerous sources verifies that the MLVs, if given after 14 wks of age (after maternal antibodies have decreased), are effective for a lifetime. Most rabies titers at this time are showing effective protection at 5 to 6 years after vaccination. I believe the rabies duration of immunity studies would help us change the ludicrous yearly vaccination requirements in many states. Many animals I test are showing protection to parvo and distemper after 10 years or more. The real question here is: how did these recommendations for yearly vaccinations start?


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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Mon 10 Jan 2011, 11:40 pm


Why Are We Vaccinating Yearly?
This is a really good question, isn't it? The first massive vaccination program began in the 1940s and the 50s for distemper and adenovirus. These early vaccines showed that one third of the puppies did not maintain protective titers to distempter for one year after the initial vaccination. By the way, we have yet to talk about susceptibility, which these researchers did not take into account. This led to the recommendation in 1959 that dogs should be vaccinated annually, as a safety measure. Distemper was a horrible, life threatening disease and was capable of going through a population of puppies very quickly. Usually it caused gastrointestinal symptoms such as bloody diarrhea (much like Parvo), or respiratory symptoms, and in the most severe state would cause neurological symptoms which were rarely successfully treated.
In 1961, recommendations that a serum analysis of the blood was the best way to determine immunological protection. Since clients would need to pay for that, plus an exam, and possibly the re-vaccination fee, it would be easier and cheaper, based on the local incidence of distempter, the history of the animal, and the potential risk, that annual vaccinations be given. Thus start the annual standard of practice. There was no science here! Unfortunately, there were few people willing to push for the serum analysis, or to really look at the exposure of each animal, or to look at any other factors influencing susceptibility.
Dr. Ron Schultz and the U. of Wisconsin-Madison, a veterinary immunologist, questions the lack of scientific evidence to support our current practices. In his article in the 1992 edition of Current Veterinary Therapy, Dr Schultz and his co-author, Dr. Phillips, discuss the issue. Their words follow: "A practice that was started many years ago and that lacks scientific validity or verification is annual vaccinations. Almost without exception there is no immunologic requirement for annual revaccination. Immunity to viruses persists for years or for the life of the animal. Successful vaccination to most bacterial pathogens produces an immunologic memory that remains for years, allowing an animal to develop a protective anamnestic (secondary) response when exposed to virulent organisms. Only the immune response to toxins requires boosters (e.g. tetanus toxin booster, in humans, is recommended once every 7-10 years) and no toxin vaccines are currently used for dogs and cats. Furthermore, revaccination with most viral vaccines fails to stimulate an anamnestic response as a result of interference by existing antibodies (similar to maternal antibody interference). The practice of annual vaccination in our opinion should be considered of questionable efficacy unless it is used as a mechanism to provide an annual physical exam or is required by law (i.e. certain states require annual revaccination for rabies)."
Whew! The summary of his statement is this: yearly boosters are unnecessary and the current antibody protection in the body will actually interfere with other new vaccines. Therefore, they are not useful and certainly don't provide more protection if given annually. This report also emphasizes that yearly reminders get people into the clinic to give yearly vaccines and put little to no emphasis on a wellness exam. This is a backward approach, isn't it? Shouldn't we remind our clients to come in for a yearly wellness check and if necessary then suggest the vaccinations? Have we become so complacent and dependent on these little vaccine vials and their financial power? Are there not other methods of preventative medicine? If you choose these yearly vaccines will your animals be protected against all the harmful diseases known to animals?

Who Is Susceptible? And To What?
There is a questions as to who is susceptible and to what diseases, which really distills down to: at what age are the animals most and least susceptible, and what diseases are species specific or regionally specific?
It is odd to me that the topic of age susceptibility is rarely if ever spoken about and yet it seems to be such an important consideration in the decision about the need for vaccinations.
We are not talking about breed susceptibility, we are talking about the ages at which certain illnesses are more likely to manifest. For example, measles and chicken pox are a childhood disease that if allowed to be expressed while young are relatively benign. As the child grows older, the susceptibility to these illnesses decreases. This is the same with many of the animal vaccines. As a clinician it is very, very uncommon to see distemper, parvo, parainfluenza, adenovirus, panleukopenia, calicivirus, herpesvirus, and others in adult animals. These seem to be most dangerous when the animal is young and their immune system is not fully developed. When I see an adult with parvo or distemper, it is frequently a purebred or has other immune dysfunction or is likely poorly cared for. I do see a predominance of parvo and distemper in young animals less than 6-8 months old, and less frequently as they get closer to 1 year old.
My question is this: why are we vaccinating animals that have passed the point of great susceptibility? Would it not be similar to humans being vaccinated every year of our lives with chicken pox, measles, diphtheria, whooping cough, hepatitis, tetanus, etc.?
The other question concerns the vaccination of diseases that are not seen at all in a particular region, or that vaccines are not effective against because the viruses have many different serovariants. For example, leptospirosis. This is a vaccine that does not provide long-lasting protection and will not provide cross-protection for all the different strains of lepto. Then why are we using this? Coronavirus is another vaccine enigma. Corona in dogs produces a mild, transient diarrhea and it is known that the vaccine does not provide protection against an infection with corona. Hardly worth the vaccine, isn't it?
Lepto is not seen in my area, so why are we vaccinating? I have seen this practice with Lyme, Corona, Feline Leukemia, Feline Infectious Peritonitis, and many equine vaccines. This seems to be an issue of convenience since the manufacturers supply all over the country/world. It also seems to fall into the category that the practice of injecting viruses into a healthy body, or an unhealthy one for that matter, is a benign process.
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Mon 10 Jan 2011, 11:50 pm

part IV

Quote:
What Are the Adverse Reactions, If Any?
Unfortunately, adverse reactions to vaccines have been considered to be the immediate hypersensitivity reactions of anaphylaxis. This severely limits the types of reactions that are ever even considered to be related to vaccines. Other problems surface which make accurate tallying of adverse reactions difficult. At present time there are no easy or effective reporting systems; many vets are reluctant to report even those where an animal dies, and the cause-effect relationship is not always clear. Even to those who believe that many of the illnesses we see, both acute and chronic, are directly related to over-vaccination, it is still at times difficult to show how this works. There are many situations where the perfectly healthy puppy is taken at 6 weeks for his first vaccines. Maybe he has a slight fever or lack of appetite and energy for a day or so. Then he is returned 2 to 3 weeks later for more vaccines. Maybe he will show another fever or maybe a day of diarrhea. Then he is returned in 2 or 3 weeks for more vaccines. Maybe he starts to itch a bit. Often by the time the pup is 6 months old he has several problems going on. He often has loose stools and he itches, but there are no fleas. Thus begins the first stages of chronic illness brought on by the vaccines.
When a perfectly healthy individual is given viruses that cause illness, the animal is going to manifest illness-related symptoms. This healthy individual is asked to maintain a low-level stimulation of a state of distemper, a low level state of parvo, a low level state of rabies, and so on. As long as you are in a low level state of illness you are not in a high level state of health. Therefore, the vaccines provide protection by keeping the body in a diseased state of health. Often the animal will not manifest the illness it is vaccinated for, at least not in its acute form, but it will manifest in other conditions. Usually these conditions are inherited weaknesses.
Chronic symptoms look very much like the acute illnesses but they are often not life-threatening unless allowed to continue for years and years.
For distemper we often see:
· Watery fluid dripping from the nose
· Conjunctivitis, eye discharge, entropion
· Chronic gastritis, hepatitis, pancreatitis, appetite disorders
· Recurrent diarrhea
· Sensitivity to food with resultant diarrhea
· Epilepsy, rear leg paralysis, spondylitis
· Lip fold dermatitis
· Excessive licking of feet, eruptions between the toes, allergies
· Kennel cough, chronic bronchitis
· Chronic skin eruptions, especially lower half of body
· Failure to thrive, abnormally thin
For rabies we often see:
· Restless nature, suspicion of others, aggression to animals and people
· Changes in behavior: aloofness, unaffectionate, desire to roam, OR clingy, separation anxiety, 'velcro dog'
· Restraining can lead to violent behavior and self-injury
· Self-mutilation, tail chewing
· Voice changes, hoarseness, excessive barking
· Chronic poor appetite, very finicky
· Paralysis of throat or tongue, sloppy eaters, drooling
· Dry eye, loss of sight, cataract
· Eating wood, stones, earth, stool
· Destructive behavior, shredding bedding
· Seizures, epilepsy, twitching
· Increased sexual desire, sexual aggression
· Irregular pulse, heart failure
· Reverse sneezing
Some of the illnesses you are familiar with include any auto-immune disease such as lupus, red cell aplasia, auto-immune hemolytic anemia cardiomyopathies; neoplasias such as fibrosarcomas, mast cell tumors, thyroid tumors, etc.; inflammatory bowel disease, eczematous ears, any dermatological condition, warts, lipomas, poor hair coats, stomatitis, periodontal disease, thyroid disease, and the list goes on and on.



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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Mon 10 Jan 2011, 11:51 pm

And the last part, sorry it was so long.

Quote:
Now you could be wondering why I am so bold to 'blame' all these and more on vaccines. The reason is simple: I have an empirical, call it experimental lab where I visit daily and watch the animals, year after year. In the short years of my career I have seen the incredible increase in all these illnesses, some we never even learned in vet school. In fact, my vet school is now primarily an oncology treatment center! This was not the case a short 20 years ago. I have also spoken with many vets who have practiced longer than I and their response is the same. They did not see the level of chronic illness, nor the resistant and concretized type of illnesses that we see today.
Because I am able to use homeopathic remedies to help resolve these effects of the vaccines I am able to see first hand the cause-effect relationship. I have also looked at the info of those who have come before me to help in this process. One such person was J. Compton Burnett, a British physician of the late 1800s and early 1900s. Burnett was a proponent of the smallpox vaccine until he started noticing that the vaccines given to young people in the prime of their lives were causing many 'other' health problems. He coined the term 'vaccinosis' to describe the illnesses caused by vaccines, separate from the illnesses they were protecting against. Much of what Burnett saw closely resembles what we see today in our animals. This is interesting how this human model is actually teaching us about what happens with animals.
Burnett further verified his hypothesis by giving the homeopathic remedy, Thuja, to many of these vaccinated individuals, as was described by Hahnneman. He was able to reverse many of these harmful effects. This is still a widely used remedy for the effects of vaccines.
Alternatives
Remember, the body has incredible capacity to provide protection against all sorts of invaders. So, if our approach to protection is from the standpoint of supporting the body in doing its job, which it already knows how to do, we are working at a more fundamental level. If we support the energy and physical systems of the body we will support the immune system, not overload it. Clean hygiene, good nutrition, clean water, plenty of exercise, constitutional treatments (preferably homeopathic), good breeding practices, and homeopathic nosodes, where needed. This all sounds very simplistic and, in fact, it is!
Should you decide to use nosodes they must be used under the guidance of a qualified vet, just as with any medication. Nosodes are homeopathic remedies made from the diseased products of whatever disease you are wanting to protect against. For distemper, nasal discharge is used. For parvo, fecal material is used. These are subsequently filtered, and sterilized, diluted and succussed as any homeopathic remedy and are administered orally. I use them starting at 7-9 weeks and continue for the first year of life only. They cannot be used for rabies licensing.
Nosodes provide protection by stimulating a non-specific immunological response. They fill the susceptibility the animal has to the disease without actually producing antibodies. If that susceptibility is filled, much like a cup of coffee to the brim, then nothing else can come in and fill it up. You can't be over-susceptible. In my practice nosodes are very effective with the exception of animals with chronic illness and poor breeding practices. The primary nosodes I use are for the life threatening diseases such as parvo, distemper, and panleukopenia. I will also use bordatella for animals in kennel situations.
If You Do Vaccinate
If you choose to vaccinate, please be careful. My recommendations are as follows: wait until 14 weeks for puppies and kittens, until the maternal antibodies are no longer present. If you must use something before 14 weeks, use nosodes; after 14 weeks, give one MLV parvo/distemper combination for dogs; for cats, give one panleukopenia, and one rabies vaccine at least two weeks after the above.
OR:
One distemper at 12 weeks, followed by one parvo at 14 weeks (these are the single vaccines and are the best, but often difficult to find). All other vaccines, except rabies, I cannot recommend, period.
Other Issues
We have yet to discuss the topic of rights, animal rights, and guardian rights. This is one you can play with on your own.
Additionally, we have yet to talk about the laws that mandate rabies requirements that don't reflect the current science. I hope to see these laws changed as there is more info form the duration of immunity studies. It will be up to the grassroots movement to initiate this as most vet associations will not support a law that will hurt the pocketbooks of the vets.
So, you can see there is quite a bit of info to assimilate, and there is more! With this, I believe there is enough to shed some light on a topic that even confuses most vets.
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Tue 11 Jan 2011, 12:15 am

Great post Pooper!!! This is something that I have been wanting more information on and I think you gave me a lot to digest. Although I don't understand all of the why's and how's of vaccines I always thought it was the right thing to do. When we got our first dog he never had any vaccines until he was 7 years old and our vet was amazed with his optimal health. He was a strong healthy boy with no issues until he hurt his rear leg so we took him in to the vet for the first time at 7. Now I think that is negligent but we took the best care of him as our limited resources allowed but when we knew he needed help we found the money to get him taken care of. Needless to say other than that one incident he was the most healthiest dog we have ever owned and to boot he ate ole roy crap. When he was 12 yrs old we decided to get another dog and this one was going to be well taken care of and never neglected like our first guy. We had a decent BYB but they loved and took great care of their pets. All puppies came with their first set of shots and health records. Well as it turns out 3 weeks to the day of his first shot he was soo sick and we almost lost him to find out after what seemed like forever that it was a direct reaction from the vaccinations. We are lucky that he made a full recovery but he is now known as Mr. Sensitive and is prone to ear infections, allergies and just an all around compromised immune system. He was diagnosed with Juvenile Cellulitis (Puppy Strangles) and although they claim there is no scientific proof most of what I have read claims it is associated with the distemper vaccine and normally occurs 3-6 weeks after the vaccinations.

I can't believe I read all of that without my glasses!! goodpost

Let me explain this reaction to you.. most breeders don't pass this information on and it sickens me... alot of pups can have reactions to shots. You never see this reaction in first shots. NEVER.. the first shot.. kind of shockens the system... it is not till the 2nd shot that you can see reactions.. the pup has been exposed to this.. then the bodies natural histamines go into over drive and start acting the cells that the vacines have planted their receptors.. kind of like an autoimmune disorder.. This is called Hypersensitivity 1- there are 3 stages of hypersensitivity in animals and in people. Now the problem is.. and I am sorry kewl chick.. is people blame vacines for everything.. yes they can have contributing factors but they are not the main cause. Most people and dogs who have immune disorders or even slight immune disorders have allergic reactions. It happens.. in people.. there are so many theories out there of why allergies are prevalanent in our socities today.. GENETICS play a huge roll.. so big of a roll that they still are trying to uncover exactly. Because GENECTICS is a HUGE... HUGE.. I don't think in my life time or my childrens life time.. they will be anywhere near where they should be or can be. We need to talk about predisposing factors and precipitating factors with shots.. another pet peeve that most vets don't educate this allergeic reactions.. sighns to watch for.. ... I swear it is money orientated... for the most part.. a small sign of reaction can usually be cured with a small dose of benedryle. I can go into what benedryl does to and blocks the bodies ability to over produce certain reactions... this wouldve helped so much.. because it needs to be administered asap.. before the chance that the body attacks its own cells because they perceive it to be foreign substances.

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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Tue 11 Jan 2011, 12:33 am

My Yorkie never had her rabies,I refused to let the vet give it,she had yearly shots until she reached about 9 and I decided it was totally unneccessary for her to have more shots than my children had

The vet here agreed with me and said that she felt in all honesty that every 5 year booster would be fine,In her entire life she was fat and healthy,the vet had a hard time due to her health believeing that she was as old as she was.



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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Tue 11 Jan 2011, 3:01 pm

What an excellent and thought-provoking post (eerrrr....well novel)! Vaccinations are my nemesis, and the author touches on some points that I've pondered often, as well, as also shedding light on stuff, that could potentially be extremely damaging to both vets and drug companies. But like I always say....you can't ever go wrong with more knowledge/education.

Do I vaccinate yearly? Sadly & unfortunately I do. I do, because society dictates that I must, if I'm going to place my dogs in a kennel, an training course, or in the hands of a groomer. Everyone's so demonic about that you must produce the little certificate, that it becomes the deal-breaker to all activities you and your dog engage in.

I was floored to read what makes up a vaccine. WOW...like HOLY SHIT....knock me over with a feather. Formaldehydes/carcinogens???!!!! Huh? We've all been on discussion boards, and replied to others' post re: skin issues, etc. and the first thing we say is, check the dog's diet. This actually gives me a whole new realm of culprits. Auto-immune diseases (from over-exposure to vaccines) is absolutely a very plausible cause.

I know vaccinations can't be healthy, when the vet cautions me to contact them immediately if there's any side-effects (post vaccine administration) and when a vet asks me, if it's really still necessary to be vaccinating my 13 y/old dog. I cringe as I say, "yes...I need him to be vaccinated, since I can't kennel him" if I don't have it. And she says, "well, can someone look after him in your home while you're away?"...and sometimes that's not always an option. It's not what she's saying...it's what she's not saying, that lets me know, she knows this isn't working anymore.

What a great post, and source of information. I'll have to come back and re-read some of her information to fully digest this.
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Wed 12 Jan 2011, 1:20 am

K-Flash wrote:
What an excellent and thought-provoking post (eerrrr....well novel)! Vaccinations are my nemesis, and the author touches on some points that I've pondered often, as well, as also shedding light on stuff, that could potentially be extremely damaging to both vets and drug companies. But like I always say....you can't ever go wrong with more knowledge/education.

Do I vaccinate yearly? Sadly & unfortunately I do. I do, because society dictates that I must, if I'm going to place my dogs in a kennel, an training course, or in the hands of a groomer. Everyone's so demonic about that you must produce the little certificate, that it becomes the deal-breaker to all activities you and your dog engage in.

I was floored to read what makes up a vaccine. WOW...like HOLY SHIT....knock me over with a feather. Formaldehydes/carcinogens???!!!! Huh? We've all been on discussion boards, and replied to others' post re: skin issues, etc. and the first thing we say is, check the dog's diet. This actually gives me a whole new realm of culprits. Auto-immune diseases (from over-exposure to vaccines) is absolutely a very plausible cause.

I know vaccinations can't be healthy, when the vet cautions me to contact them immediately if there's any side-effects (post vaccine administration) and when a vet asks me, if it's really still necessary to be vaccinating my 13 y/old dog. I cringe as I say, "yes...I need him to be vaccinated, since I can't kennel him" if I don't have it. And she says, "well, can someone look after him in your home while you're away?"...and sometimes that's not always an option. It's not what she's saying...it's what she's not saying, that lets me know, she knows this isn't working anymore.

What a great post, and source of information. I'll have to come back and re-read some of her information to fully digest this.

I so very much agree with what you have stated. Unfortunately I too have to get the bloody shots to do what I do with my dogs. At the dog shows they aren't focused on vacs but the training centers insist or one can't attend. tantrum
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Wed 12 Jan 2011, 1:22 am

This is a good read Pooper, I'm going to have to re-read the article. I don't like to vaccinate my dog every year but do. I'm thinking this year, the only vaccination she'll get is the rabies vaccine. No more kennel cough vaccines, as she ended up catching a different strain of kennel cough last year. If I have to board my dog, then I will plan ahead and get her the required vaccinations 3 weeks prior to being boarded. But in the whole 4 years I've had her, I've never had to board her anywhere.
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Wed 12 Jan 2011, 11:52 pm

I wonder what the people of Kijiji might think of this? Dare I. I think it's a good read too. I have printed it out and taking it with me to my vet(s) offices to see what they say. Wish Mini had more time to add her thoughts. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Thu 13 Jan 2011, 12:41 am

pooperscooper wrote:
I wonder what the people of Kijiji might think of this? Dare I. I think it's a good read too. I have printed it out and taking it with me to my vet(s) offices to see what they say. Wish Mini had more time to add her thoughts. Smile

I think this is excellent information for any animal person. It's really made me think.
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Thu 13 Jan 2011, 12:43 am

http://whoistheysay.blogspot.com/

I think this should be printable and all on one page.


Last edited by pooperscooper on Thu 13 Jan 2011, 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Thu 13 Jan 2011, 12:51 am

Sorry pooper.. I will post later or tomorrow.. Right now I am going on working nights.. then going to school all day.. then sleeping for 4 hours. for the last 3 days.. I will.. I haven't read it all.. then I will talk to my vets.. LOL...

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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Thu 13 Jan 2011, 1:49 am

Mini wrote:
Sorry pooper.. I will post later or tomorrow.. Right now I am going on working nights.. then going to school all day.. then sleeping for 4 hours. for the last 3 days.. I will.. I haven't read it all.. then I will talk to my vets.. LOL...


YAY..really wanted your input. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Thu 13 Jan 2011, 10:37 am

Mini,I am really interested in what Iylia has to say,or what his dads thoughts would have been on the vaccinations.

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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Thu 13 Jan 2011, 8:56 pm

I haven't read it all.. But I don't want to loose my thoughts as I am reading so bear with me.. over 24 hours lol.. since I slept..


Now, I am not going to talk about pro or against at this momemt. I am going to talk to you about several of subjects of including human beings since it was mentioned and what happens in our body. Now I haven't spoken to my vets yet to get their opinions..

But I read the first article and I believe the 2nd article. It is really interesting this topic came up when we in our class our learning about scientific studie and how drugs and vacines get approved.. anyways....

Lets talk about herd mentality. This is what I get a kick out of it. I vacinate my children. If you look throughout history, we have basically eliminated alot of childhood diseases to vacines programs. Now today, there are cases popping up of diseases that we haven't seen in a long time- such as small pox ect.. The numbers for these diseases are increasing. Ask yourself why that may be.. As the movement goes towards no vacines... we are finding more people opt to not vacinating their children. Their responses are see... my children never got the small pox or the other various disease that we vacinate against. Well no shit sherlock, this is due to the fact that this society has protected their children because of the herd mentality. now as more move to not vacinating the chain is being broken.. and we are going to in the future find more cases of the diseases of the past . We are going to find that those virus's are going to start to mutate and then more vacines will need to be created to stop the spread of the new disease. Hope this makes sense. This logic can be applied to the same with animal vacines.

Ask yourselve why rabies isn't as common as it used to be? It is very rare that you hear about an infected animal.. even more so rare that a human will get bitten by a rapid animal and go through the painful procedure as what has happened in the past. Now I ask myself if everyone decides to not vacinate.. and the chain is broken what is the effect that may happen.

I think we all know the dangers that come with vacines. The cancer ect... but in my opinion the benefit does outweigh the risk to some degree.


2nd part of this.. is the thought that one vacine and one booster would be enough to protect a dog for their life based on studies. One thing i have learned is that studies can not be the be all and end all in any given experiement. For example the dogs that they followed what enviromental factors came to play. Did they follow city dwelling dogs... those that would be considered in a low risk category. Did they study working dogs that work in an area that may have seen a rabies outbreak. ( only speaking of this particular vacine) What about the high risk to these dogs.. were they part of the study group. I would havre to see the studies to break them apart further. But I hope you get the point.

Now back to medical.. I have been doubly vacinated.. LOL.. another post.. However, what the medical society is finding that boasters are starting to be required into adult hood for certain diseases.. even the childhood diseases that we once thought wouldn't be of concern to us anymore. I will try to find the articles in my text book later.. sorry so you can see what I am looking at.. just too damn tired...


K not finished yet.. but my eyeballs are burning.. lmfao.... and I can't just copy this post.. will continue in a minute.. for more of my thoughts..
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Fri 14 Jan 2011, 11:46 am

I'm not against vaccinations for pets, but I do wonder if vets are over vaccinating them. There was an incident in Ontario a few years ago where a small religious community came down with small pox (I think it was) because they do not believe in vaccinations.

Does a dog need to be vaccinated every year and how come they don't have vaccinations that would at least be good for every 3 years? My vet does yearly rabies vaccines, but is against the 3 year rabies vaccine. Still not 100% why.
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Fri 14 Jan 2011, 2:23 pm

Will respond to all of this sometime.. maybe today...I asked my vet about 3 yr.. she doesn't like the 3 yr for my working dogs.....

alot depends on the anotomy and how the dog processes the vacine on receptor site.. titters are very expensive and when you have 2 dogs.. each dog can have different levels of that vacine.. so when we assume they are okay.. they can be more suspetable to the rabies virus...

Virus... are different then most things.. they warm into the cells.. and then reproduce in living and functioning cells.. now with vacines it is not 100 percent effective.. that is why the herd mentality comes into great play....... vacines are not 100 percent effective. their rate of effectiveness depends on so many factors...

more later.. we are in course about this right now.. lol
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Fri 14 Jan 2011, 3:14 pm

How ironic.. that in class we are focusing on virus's.. Now I am going to write what I have learned from this class and it can be applied to dogs.. same ideas...

1st thing to consider is why is a rabies vacine- by law you have to have it for your fur babies and not every other vacine like distemper

prime reason is the implication it can have to the public. Rabies is not species specific.. like the other virus's our furbabies can get.. Some fungual infections can be infected from one species to another species.. such as ring worm.

First we must understand the courses of virus's, to understand how vacines actually work. Things to consider is that each body person or animal reacts differently.

But virus''s have a tendency to mutate if given the opportunity.. If mutation occurs then we have to alter the vacines in order to come up with a way to combat the new virus. A good example is influenza.. the h1n1 as well as the avian flu that has scientists in a huge dismay.. Due to the implications and complexities of the avian flu.

This is why , I am so against the new move to not vacinate children and for adults not to receive their boosters. Yes their are side effects.....not going to argue against them. But if you look at enviromental factors play a huge roll in what we are encountering in our society today. We also must also consider that animals and people are living longer due to medical interventions.. You can just take a look at statistics on the overall averages to see that the proof is in the pudding... But when the movement comes to not vacinating.. herd mentality.. we are risking alot.. Such as the small pox.. if the small pox virus is starting to infiltrate the public .. the chances it is going to mutate is greater.. therefor if the mutation occurs.. those who have had the vacine.. are now suspitable to the mutated virus. This can be the same for Rabies.. the more rabies that prevent itself.. the greater the chances of mutation.. so even if you vacinate yearly 3 years.. 5 years or just once. those that refuse to vacinate ... our going to put your pets at greater risk from a mutation version of the virus. Hope that makes sense..

Now all of this writting is going on my own knowledge and educated guesses.. but i am sure if I dig hard enough.. I can find you factual information. however... time is not on myside at this point... I do have a call into my vets..


Now, lets talk teeter ( sp) blood checks. To test the amont of antibody in the dogs system. Great concept.. Great tool. However, just to test for the antibodies of one vacine such as rabies last time I checked it was well over 200 dollars. Personally with my crew.. I couldn't afford a yearly test. This is reality. Plus the thing to consider as our aniimals ages.. their immune system like ours.. deterates.. causes the normal death of cells. Now, we have to consider as the normal aging process.. and cell death. Our dogs ability to fight different virus's is complicated. if they do not have the same immune system as they once had. Also it is hard for our government to control and maintain the current laws they do have in trying to get every pet owner out there to vacinate- never the mind using teeter blood tests.... because of poor dog ownership.. they are subjecting all of us to mutations.. as well as increasing the contact of the virus.

The one thing I am not sure of to be honest.. is the difference for the 3yr and the one year.. Most of you all have furbabies that our not in my situation. My working dogs are a high risk categorie in getting bitten from wildlife that may have the rabies vacine. So in my opinion it may be okay not to have the vacines. I don't shoot up my pugs.. because they do not have the same high risk as the other dogs.

I would like to make a comparison. to maybe add to my point.. First we need to understand the point of entry for the virus. our flu like virus's point of entry is drops.. entering through the mucosa.. so we all can get the flu shot.. even if I had received the H1n1 flu shot. I can still get H1N1.. the general public thinks that just cause you are vacinated means you have 100 percent immune protection. This is not the case. As every body is different and enviromental factors and each immune system can have different outcomes. Now with flu virus;s our own bodies have strong enough defense systems that we can fight off those virus's with the exception of individuals with compromised immune systems. I know I am comparing humans to dogs.. but for the most part their cellular structure is the same as humans with some exceptions... but it gives a good outlook at possibilites that can occur.. if we deviate things... without enough scientific studies that involve different groups,, different enviromental factors. too many unknowns to be have accurate results ro fully understand implications.

However, rabies virus is transmitted through for the most part saliva entering in the blood stream.. bite marks... ect.. this is the major pathway for this virus. Rabies virus. plays a huge roll on the dogs CNS system which enables the transfer of the virus greater as they tend to bite- angry alot. The dog who pocesses the virus.. can transmit that virus prior to showing signs of rabies.. which pocesses a greater risk.. so even a little nip.. can cause the transfer of the virus. If it happend to be a human who gets the rabies virus because it is not species specific. the outcomes are so great.. because it is imperative to get treatement ASAP in order to combat the virus.. and the treatment in itself is painful. so if treatment is prolonged until the dog shows signs and symptons it coud mean death to the person.. and also it gives the virus time to mutate.. or a greater risk for mutation.


Now I believe I saw in one part of the article where they indicated they seen the effects of over vacinating. This I would like to disagree with. Because even though it sounds great when reading it.. and we can put together the links.. their is no scientific fact at this point. We have to consider so many things.. such as the enviroment the dog is in, the dogs immune system.. any underlying conditions the dog may have....

Think about it like this- You can have 5 smokers... out of those 5 smokers 3 of them get lung cancer.. Why did the other 2 not develop the same lung cancer.......??????????? gentics, envirmental conditions play a huge roll in the outcome. smoking is a factor and it does contribute to lung cancer and other pulmonary disorders.. but why does it effect some and not everyone. Nutrition plays a roll, exercise.. ect.. ect... ect.........

same thing can be said for our animals.. why do some have severe reactions to shots and others non.. genetics,, immune systems.. ect....too many factors.. to just say... Vacines.. did this to this dog.., Yes their are links.. but it is not proven scientific on several of studies.. and the reason most of the studies can be tore apart.. because their are too many other factors that play into the game.

BBE not sure if I answered your question..

But speaking for myself.. because a vacine is not 100 percent.. and my dogs are exposed more to what some of the average dogs could be... and because their are too many other factors to consider.. the yearly rabies shot is for me.. for the working dogs.. and I would like to point out.. just because my dogs are vacinated.. they still can contract rabies..................it is not 100 percent.

I will update when I get more infor from my vets.. but these are my educated responses.. am I write who knows.. lol..

But I always have to think.. do the benefits of vacines.. eliminate the risks.. everything we do has a risk.. for us and our furbabies... we all need to make our own decisions.. but you need to also consider.. the herd mentality.. because if more and more people refuse to vacinate... then the herd mentality is broken.. then the virus can mutate into something we do not have a treatment for... once mutation happens.. we as a humans our also at risks.. and Fear can reck havoc on any society..... think about what would happen if their was a rabies outbreak in an animal population and that virus gets transmitted to people.. and some people die due to that situation.. their would be mass panick.. just like in the BSE that has happend to canada... Thousands of cattle were put down.. due to fear.. the industry took a huge hit and to this day are still struggling to get back on their feet. It is a viscious circle.. and it is something that can happen.....

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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Fri 14 Jan 2011, 3:53 pm

whew I read it all... I can't quote it all..


This person is right on alot of levels... but one thing I want to point out.. and I did is mutation.. I have seen distemper in older animals.. why do you think distemper can whip out a whole population of cats lets say barn cats.. various ages... not just in the young......

i agree with alot of what she is saying.. but this article is missing a whole wack of information..... and I think I covered alot by using the rabies vacine..

she even mentioned that their are no studies to show what levels of the antibodies would be sufficient enough to determine whether they can fight off the infection. I have used rabies as a prime example. Because the laws in this country for the most part.. say you have to have a yearly rabies vacination for your dogs and cats. The reason this is.. because it is not species specific.. like I mentioned.... the impact could be great if the virus is transmitted to humans.

In the medical field.. we are seeing so much in regards to mutation.. from virus's to bacterias... MSNA- this is a bacterial mutation that is prevalant in long term care facilities.. Most antiboitics can not fight this because it has mutated beyond on what our pharmacology has to offer.. There are other mutations we are seeing in our hositals such as the nosociamal (Sp) bacteria.. that you can not treat with simple anti boitics.. now, some can argue that they are prevalent in immune supressed.. Which at this point is 100 percent. But, it won't take long till it mutates and is passed on to those that have strong immune system.


This article is also saying that many child hood diseases were starting to come down prior to vacinations. I agree, but you need to understand how virus's and bacterias work. Ask yourselve.. then why are we seeing these virus''s in todays society. A virus doesn't just disappear it kind of becomes dormat in my opinion.. it reappears... they are very opportunistic... and it will present itself.

Another question you have to ask yourself.. is why are we seeing the average age of humans and animals live longer- with vacines usage.. You would think it would be the opposite if vacines were so devastating. The average life span should be decreasing, this may just happen as our society gets worse and worse with diet and exercise..

The other thing she doesn't mention.. she goes into active immunity.. she goes into distemper.. she goes into lots of great information but doesn't fully talk about rabies.. which is in my mind. THE most important vacinne out there. She is right that our immune systems can combat alot of the other diseases.. IN HEALTHY ANIMALS.. but that is what is so great about herd mentality. I will fight to the end in regards to this. UNLESS your animal is bubble wrapped..doesn't leave your house.. doesn't go outside for a pee... because parvo is carried for the most part by wild bird feces.....and YES parvo can be transmitted into adult dogs.. AND yes adult dogs.. immune system can fight off that disease.. but do you know if your dogs immune system is 100 percent.. most people don't take their animals to a vet for a yearly examine the only time is when something is wrong. Then it may be too late.

HERD mentality is what saves the weak and the impressed immune systems. When we loose that... like I said.. watch out. You may not believe me and think I am full of shit..... but we don't want to live in a world like the wild world.. where only the strong survive. But we live in a world where the strong protect the weak. Which is the basis of the herd mentality. But as you all witness.. it isn't about what you are doing for your neighbor or their dog.. our society is turning into all about me and how does things benefit me. Do I believe in homepathetic remedies. your damn right. most of our medicines about 30 percent are made from plants. Do I believe that our bodies can fight things off.. and when we relay on chemicals.. we can weaken our own existence. Yes I do. But I also believe that it is my responisblity to protect those that do not have the strong system. One of the reasons.. I was double vacinated. In order to work for alberta health services I had to prove that I was fasinated.. and yes.. you do require boosters for vacines.... alot more then you all think. Manitoba would not release my vacines records.. and alberta health services said they would fight to get them. Because I do have all my shots... I said the hell with it.. and got all the shots again....but because it was imperative that I protect those I serve. Just like the flu shot. it was a volunteer decision.... recommended.. but the flu could kill my residents. I have a stronger system.. some of them can't get the shots.. so I went with what I knew of the herd mentality..... another prime example.. is their are cases of meningistis right now in schools in edmonton.. the chains are being broken and it is sad that people don't understand the reasoning behind vacines and promote not to vacinate when their hasn't been sufficifinct fact that vacines are the root cause of certain problems people face. Most people want to blame something on something.. We are all like that.. if an animal is sick.. it is because of vacinnes.. and has nothing to do with enviromental factors.. or the processed dog food... or other chemicals that our in our human food that we feed our animals who do not have the systems to digest that food.. No it has to be the chemicals in vacines..

I am not ranting.. but I don't know the answer, I really don't.. the more I study.. the more I question..

But the one thing I can tell you, in my opinion. I would blame myself if I decided that my working dogs didn't get vacinated and god forbid.. they contracted rabies and I spread this to my family.. my neighbors family. It is something I can try to prevent not 100 percent.. cause nothing is 100 percent.. but it would be my fault and I can't live with that.

I am fascinated by genetics.. I am fasinated by how our own gene mutations exist.. I can go on and on in regards to this. Mutation happens all the time. Cancer is a mutation or neoplasm which means new growth.
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Fri 14 Jan 2011, 4:03 pm

Kewl Chick wrote:
Great post Pooper!!! This is something that I have been wanting more information on and I think you gave me a lot to digest. Although I don't understand all of the why's and how's of vaccines I always thought it was the right thing to do. When we got our first dog he never had any vaccines until he was 7 years old and our vet was amazed with his optimal health. He was a strong healthy boy with no issues until he hurt his rear leg so we took him in to the vet for the first time at 7. Now I think that is negligent but we took the best care of him as our limited resources allowed but when we knew he needed help we found the money to get him taken care of. Needless to say other than that one incident he was the most healthiest dog we have ever owned and to boot he ate ole roy crap. When he was 12 yrs old we decided to get another dog and this one was going to be well taken care of and never neglected like our first guy. We had a decent BYB but they loved and took great care of their pets. All puppies came with their first set of shots and health records. Well as it turns out 3 weeks to the day of his first shot he was soo sick and we almost lost him to find out after what seemed like forever that it was a direct reaction from the vaccinations. We are lucky that he made a full recovery but he is now known as Mr. Sensitive and is prone to ear infections, allergies and just an all around compromised immune system. He was diagnosed with Juvenile Cellulitis (Puppy Strangles) and although they claim there is no scientific proof most of what I have read claims it is associated with the distemper vaccine and normally occurs 3-6 weeks after the vaccinations.

I can't believe I read all of that without my glasses!! goodpost

Let me explain this reaction to you.. most breeders don't pass this information on and it sickens me... alot of pups can have reactions to shots. You never see this reaction in first shots. NEVER.. the first shot.. kind of shockens the system... it is not till the 2nd shot that you can see reactions.. the pup has been exposed to this.. then the bodies natural histamines go into over drive and start acting the cells that the vacines have planted their receptors.. kind of like an autoimmune disorder.. This is called Hypersensitivity 1- there are 3 stages of hypersensitivity in animals and in people. Now the problem is.. and I am sorry kewl chick.. is people blame vacines for everything.. yes they can have contributing factors but they are not the main cause. Most people and dogs who have immune disorders or even slight immune disorders have allergic reactions. It happens.. in people.. there are so many theories out there of why allergies are prevalanent in our socities today.. GENETICS play a huge roll.. so big of a roll that they still are trying to uncover exactly. Because GENECTICS is a HUGE... HUGE.. I don't think in my life time or my childrens life time.. they will be anywhere near where they should be or can be. We need to talk about predisposing factors and precipitating factors with shots.. another pet peeve that most vets don't educate this allergeic reactions.. sighns to watch for.. ... I swear it is money orientated... for the most part.. a small sign of reaction can usually be cured with a small dose of benedryle. I can go into what benedryl does to and blocks the bodies ability to over produce certain reactions... this wouldve helped so much.. because it needs to be administered asap.. before the chance that the body attacks its own cells because they perceive it to be foreign substances.


ops I edited instead of quoted.. so this is my quick fix
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Fri 14 Jan 2011, 4:08 pm

yorkiemom wrote:
My Yorkie never had her rabies,I refused to let the vet give it,she had yearly shots until she reached about 9 and I decided it was totally unneccessary for her to have more shots than my children had

The vet here agreed with me and said that she felt in all honesty that every 5 year booster would be fine,In her entire life she was fat and healthy,the vet had a hard time due to her health believeing that she was as old as she was.



Yorkie great point. Not trying to argue.. but once again genectics play a huge roll. see I always find genectic topics of interest with breeders.. they are usually concerned with confirmation faults, colors.... and different stuff.. some proclaim to know about genectic defects.. which they do have knowledge but the world of genectics is huge.... something that I have been studying on the side lines.. I am not an expert.. and any one who deems they are.. are full of shit. But i would like to say, or maybe ask.. because I am not aware but your yorkie was never high risk for contracting rabies. I do agree to a certain extent. But my opinion is those that say the same thing and put their dogs in high risk situations are asking for trouble.
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Fri 14 Jan 2011, 5:11 pm

JUST TALKED TO MY AMAZING MALE VET... yes yorkie..

Now, he did say that i wasn't 100 percent wrong with the herd mentality.. and virus's and stuff....he said I was a little off on some thing.. had it backwards. he said |i was right in what is happening with small pox. He said he disagrees with gina on somethings.. lol.. but he still loves her.. she is just too busy to read all the new research...


I am going to quote some of the things he said.. First it is his job to know this information.. he aint like some crazy vet.. cause he said if he gives me wrong information.. he knows his clients will kick his ass.. so he needs to up to date on scientific studies.. and not some shitty peta propoganda studies...he said some other words.. lmfao..

He said the first thing to do.. find out who did the study. the reason why.. what research was being done.. BUT the biggest thing.. IS WHO is paying for the research.. because who ever pays for it.. has a huge impact on what the outcomes of that research our. You would be surprised to see that about 60 percent of research is from those crazy assed peta people... he loves animal rescue people. but those good for nothing son of a bitches...... anyways..

he said you can't really compare humans to animals. like they do in their theories.. you can to a certain extent. Because in the human population 97 percent of the world is vacinated on a whole which provides the herd mentalty.. ( which i was right) and he said that will start changing over the years.. due to people thinking not to be vacinating...

However, he said out of all the animal populations less then 30 percent vacinate .. he said from the 30 percent... 10 percent follow through on the protocal... the other 10 percent don't have any other shots.. and the other 10 percent.. who the hell knows what they do.. ( LMAO)

he said in alberta rabies is not prevalant like in some countries where the humans are getting rabies because it is more prevalant.. now mutation can occur but it needs to be more prevalent to happen. It may happen.. but there is no more scientific research because it hasn't occured. However, it could be a problem in the future but who knows what the hell is going to happen.
He also said.. to not be fooled with prevalent.. he said most people think prevalant to household pets. He means prevalent in coyotes.. he also said areas with a high population of bats will see more rabies outbreaks then areas with less of a population. he said about 54 percent of rabies infections can lead back to bats. Interesting.. I didn't know that.
He did say things about mutation.. but you need more of a base to be ineffected in order for it to mutate. He said it could happen but the chances are higher with a greater outbreak.. he said I wasn't wrong.. but my numbers were off.. then he did call me a smart cookie.. but to always phone him for correct info... LMFAo..

He did say don't believe any garble on the internet.. come to him for scientific fact cause he wouldn't bullshit me for a dollar.. LMFAO.. you have to understand this man...He did say.. that some vets go for the yearly shot... and yes slap him for a dollar. They ruin it for other vets who give a rats ass about animals. He then said if he didn't have good prices for services.. hew ould see alot of dead animals in the area.... he mentions this to me every time I talk to him.. lmfao

He did say he is seeing more cases of parvo- mutated from the original parvo.. but the cases he seen were those of the 10 percent that don't follow his protocal. He did say that he had one case that had shots.. but there could be underlining factors.....

Now onto the rabies vacine.. which vets don't tell you..

the first rabies shot you need. it will protect your animal for 15 months. The 2nd shot should be a 3 yr vacine. The reason is.. between the first shot and the 2nd shot your teeters are close and you need to boast those antibodies .. like the shock system I mentioned. The 3rd year vacine will protect up to 25-28 months. NOT 3 years..

He did say that annual teeter (sp) are a waste of god damn money.. Now, depends on his client and the enviroment of the dogs. In my case because my working dogs are more prevalent in encountering rabies then your average little housepet that goes for a walk and such on a leash. I should get the 3 yr vaccine. He did say that after a certain age- depending on where his clients live and the dogs circumstances.. they should be protected for life. But he recommends 3 year vacinnes for most of his clients so it doesn't come back and bite him in the ass.

He went on and on about the prevalence of rabies in other countries because they don't have vaccines for humans never the less dogs or cats. You see more instance of species to species transitions. If rabies becomes more prevalent in a given area.. then he would recommend maybe yearly shots. but he would have to see the scientific evidence and not some bullshit research funded by peta and pharmasutical companies.

However, he did indicate because of the break out of parvo in this area... he recommend the yearly shot of parvo this year..

Oh and as to parvo only in pups.. HE said bullshit.. you see prevalent cases because of their immune system.. the reason you do not see it in adult dogs as much is because of vaccines. He indicated that it is scientific proof.. even if a puppy has had their first shots.. they have some what immunity to parvo. So this plays a huge roll in the outcome of the dog if they were to get parvo. plus their immune systems.. age.. ect.... He would never not recommend shots to an animal.. their are exceptions based on the animals health and circumstances.. but to say all shots are evil is putting a bullet to an animals head.. because rabies, parvo and other diseases are out there.

He also said that even if dogs get one shot of rabies.. they could be somewhat protected.. he said there are different levels of protection. If I got the 3yr shot.. my furbabies would be safe and loved by their mommy ( his humor) he also said that when one of my senior dogs... start getting ill.. he wouldn't recommend a rabies shot.. due to their systems. but he would have to see and exam the dog before making that decision per dog.. not a blanket statement.

I am probably missing some stuff.. LOL.. he talks so damn fast and jumps from other things... lmfao you would have to understand him to love him. He is a no nonsense type of vet.... if you don't need medicine and home remedies will help he will tell you over the phone. if you need something he will tell you. If you are full of shit.. he will tell you.. LMFAo

The last thing he said.. LMFAo.. as good christians we tend to believe everything we read on that god damn internet. But he said.. you should know by taking your courses.. that you need to find out why the studies are happening.. but find out who pays for them. He said if you break me scientific prove.. and bring me the studies.. and don't dare bring me any studies that have been funded by those god damn peta asses.. then we can sit down and hash it out. But from everything he has read and researched. this is his recommendation. These recommendations come from research, many years experience, from his work, his father who was one of the best vets work. Then he challenged me to prove him wrong.. lmfao.. i told him I don't have the time right now.... lol.. I said one day I will.. he said he looked forward to it.. and laughed on the phone.. He is a smart ass.. but a damn good vet
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PostSubject: Re: Vaccinations   Fri 14 Jan 2011, 5:26 pm

I forgot to add that we did talk a little bit about vacines and chemicals in them and the health issues that arise...


The first thing he said, is he wants people to stop comparing a human vacine to an animal vacine. This is where I was wrong. I learned something... he said they are not the same damn types of vacines. He said this is the basis of those peta research crap. they compare a human vacinnes ability to protect for a lifetime.. to every animal vaccine and this is pure bull shit. now bare with me.. I don't remeber the terminology he used.. he was rattling off chemicals...They are not the same type of vacines being administered.. THEY can't be.. He said.... because of the difference body chemistries between animals and humans.. it is different vacines. He said some animals are the same and you see that with the use of animals to inhence human life.. He then went off and talked about pigs and insulin before they went synthetic.. or was it insullin.. lol.. sorry guys.. he goes way to fast... but his point was if we were all the same.. then it wouldn't matter the species of animal that was used. they could use anything. Then he said look at scientific experiments.. we use mice.. sometimes the mice have a positive outcome.. but when used on humans.. it is negative.. We are not the same.. vaccines are not the same.. then he went into a peta rant......


But he did agree with me.. about chemicals.. they could have some effect.. not every drug for human doesn't have an effect.. he said crap you can take tylenol and still have an effect. he then even went into herbal remedies and said that people think they are the greatest.. he said yes they are.. but even the use of herbal remedies has side effects and we need to be educated on it all..

Then he agreeed with me on the enviroment and you can't just link a vacinne to something alone. He said there are adverse effects but that goes with everything.. and the damn vet better know about them and educate them to their clients.. then he said what don't I tell you.. lol.. I laughed...


I have to talk to him later this week.. I am scared to probe more.. lmao.. cayuse he really hates some studies and peta... good thing he had clients cause I swear if he had the time.. I would get an education.. lol
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