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mcpug
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PostSubject: seniors in rescue   Wed 25 Aug 2010, 6:38 pm

SWON pug rescue is taking in an 11 year old male UNALTERED (IDK why at 11 this dog is still not neutered).

owner was going to put him down if she couldnt find him a place in rescue.

Who is going to want this guy?

He may be our first hospice pug.
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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Wed 25 Aug 2010, 7:06 pm

will he be to old to alter now mcpug? Do they have lots of problems at that age? I know very little about pugs,except they are cute

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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Wed 25 Aug 2010, 7:25 pm

i havent seen him yet but unless he is on deaths door or the vet does not feel he can take it then he will be neutered ASAP.

He also has a growth that apparently "doesn't bother him" but swells in the heat, OH but yea he has had vet care she said "rescued' him 4 years ago........but was going to put him down because she is moving makes me want to take myself out.
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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Wed 25 Aug 2010, 7:32 pm

I moved from one country to another but my yorkie came with me for God's sakes

I get so tired of people who just throw them away

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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Thu 26 Aug 2010, 12:29 am

Personally I think it is just cruel to neuter old guys. I don't think it's fair to put them through that operation at their lives end. Old dudes usually have health problems to start with and anesthetic plus stress they don't need. This was the one reason I stopped dog rescue because rescues insist on it instead of rehoming the dogs with new owners who are responsible to prevent oops litters. Yes old dogs are still interested in females but in the right home that would Never happen.
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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Thu 26 Aug 2010, 7:06 am

It might not be your choice but its far from cruel.


ETA that I am not even thinking about him trying to breed I am thinking that its better for his health, he will probably need a dental cleaning anyways, and he marks so hopefully he will stop marking once he is neutered.

I would never be cruel to an animal
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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Thu 26 Aug 2010, 12:01 pm




Vet and 2:30 and groomer at 3:30....... he smells and look at his nails Sad
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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Thu 26 Aug 2010, 12:04 pm

poor boy,how do people let them get in that shape?

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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Thu 26 Aug 2010, 2:04 pm

Poor guy.. he sure is cute though.

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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Thu 26 Aug 2010, 2:08 pm

Thank you for helping him mcpug.
What a beautiful boy.
He needs some love and care and he will shine!
I want to cut his nails..ouch long.
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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Thu 26 Aug 2010, 2:35 pm

Actually , I agree with Pooper in this case

If he is in poor shape to begin with, it is harder on their systems to come out of it.

Too many more complications happen.. Bleed outs even in casterations can happen alot more then if they are younger.

Putting a dog under just to get fixed can cause him more problems then leaving him intacted.

The drugs used for sedation- depending on what the vet uses. Gas would be a little less on his system IMO then the other drugs.

I would make sure he has a pre op before going under.

Etd: in my experience due to his age- having him casterated is not going to help his marking. This is usually successful if the dog is younger. Now it is just a habit. A very hard habit to break due to his age.


It is not the procedure that will cause the complication.It is putting him under. One of the reasons.

Blood and urine.. Chest xrays to determin if doing this procedure will be a benefit in this case
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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Thu 26 Aug 2010, 2:48 pm

Then one must think money. I know it sounds cruel. But it is a reality

Blood work- 100 plus depending

Urine another 100

chestor EKG 100 plus

surgery 300 plus

dental 300 plus

ect...

Now this is the decisions in Rescue. Can you throw away thousands of dollars, on one dog. Or use that money for several of rescues.

Depending on how the rescue is funded this may not be a problem

Do I think that he should suffer. No, But I would pay for everything- the major health concerns first and foremost. Being casterated is not one of the things that would be on my priority list.
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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Thu 26 Aug 2010, 2:57 pm

Mini wrote:
Actually , I agree with Pooper in this case

If he is in poor shape to begin with, it is harder on their systems to come out of it.

Too many more complications happen.. Bleed outs even in casterations can happen alot more then if they are younger.

Putting a dog under just to get fixed can cause him more problems then leaving him intacted.

The drugs used for sedation- depending on what the vet uses. Gas would be a little less on his system IMO then the other drugs.

I would make sure he has a pre op before going under.

I didn't say he was in poor shape, actually he is in really good physical shape he is just old and neglected.

I don't see how neutering a dog at any age could be considered cruel, maybe not what someone else would do but its no where near cruel.

People can pick apart whatever they want, I am in contact with a lot of people who have been in rescue for 40 plus years and I often seek advice from those who others would consider over the top or too picky about what happens with the dogs in rescue, to bitter about all the crap they see in rescue..... bottom line is they do it for the dogs, not for the public, not for the adopters, not for their own ego, not for popular public opinion.

I have euthanized dogs with behavioral problems, I denied many adopters for various reasons, I have gone against the popular public opinion to help dogs and the bottom line is I don't care what the public opinion is, I am doing what is ethically and morally correct for a reputable rescue and I do it for the dogs not anybody else.

I neuter or spay all dogs that come through the rescue unless there is a damn good reason not to, and being old is not a good reason by itself.

I can't just throw my hands up because he is old, that's not fair to him.

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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Thu 26 Aug 2010, 3:01 pm

Mini wrote:
Then one must think money. I know it sounds cruel. But it is a reality

Blood work- 100 plus depending

Urine another 100

chestor EKG 100 plus

surgery 300 plus

dental 300 plus

ect...

Now this is the decisions in Rescue. Can you throw away thousands of dollars, on one dog. Or use that money for several of rescues.

Depending on how the rescue is funded this may not be a problem

Do I think that he should suffer. No, But I would pay for everything- the major health concerns first and foremost. Being casterated is not one of the things that would be on my priority list.

Mini every dog that comes into my rescue gets ALL vet care, if its 10 dollars of 4000 dollars, thats the way we work here. There is no time limits or fund limits if the dog can have a quality of life after leaving our rescue. That's why we don't take many dogs. We are quality based not quantity....... we are not a shelter or pound we are a breed specific rescue and we are the last stop for many dogs who would be PTS anywhere else.
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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Thu 26 Aug 2010, 3:02 pm

mcpug wrote:
Mini wrote:
Actually , I agree with Pooper in this case

If he is in poor shape to begin with, it is harder on their systems to come out of it.

Too many more complications happen.. Bleed outs even in casterations can happen alot more then if they are younger.

Putting a dog under just to get fixed can cause him more problems then leaving him intacted.

The drugs used for sedation- depending on what the vet uses. Gas would be a little less on his system IMO then the other drugs.

I would make sure he has a pre op before going under.

I didn't say he was in poor shape, actually he is in really good physical shape he is just old and neglected.

I don't see how neutering a dog at any age could be considered cruel, maybe not what someone else would do but its no where near cruel.

People can pick apart whatever they want, I am in contact with a lot of people who have been in rescue for 40 plus years and I often seek advice from those who others would consider over the top or too picky about what happens with the dogs in rescue, to bitter about all the crap they see in rescue..... bottom line is they do it for the dogs, not for the public, not for the adopters, not for their own ego, not for popular public opinion.

I have euthanized dogs with behavioral problems, I denied many adopters for various reasons, I have gone against the popular public opinion to help dogs and the bottom line is I don't care what the public opinion is, I am doing what is ethically and morally correct for a reputable rescue and I do it for the dogs not anybody else.

I neuter or spay all dogs that come through the rescue unless there is a damn good reason not to, and being old is not a good reason by itself.

I can't just throw my hands up because he is old, that's not fair to him.


HOLD on Batman..

I was offering my opinion. I also stated to have a pre op done. On the outside he could be in fair shape.

But at that age. The heart of a dog.. you can not tell. If he has a weakness in his heart. Then putting him under could and would mean death. Having a Good pre op exam and tests is what is needed here. I have watched a couple of dogs and one cat die on the table due to the client not wanting a pre op tests done. THe vet can only do so much without actually blood work and EKG ect..

Reference to a reputable rescue- would put the dog first and foremost. If casteration is not one of the main Heatlh concerns then fine


Get off the soap box, my opinion was from a medical point of view only. I don't care what you have done and not done.Because you are talking and preaching to the wrong 2 people in that case.

The animals health IMO comes first and foremost. Adult or DOG. putting anyone under at a young or old age. COMES with HUGE.. HUGE HUGE risks. Way those risks and make sure you have a pre op and the tests completed.
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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Thu 26 Aug 2010, 3:04 pm

mcpug wrote:
Mini wrote:
Then one must think money. I know it sounds cruel. But it is a reality

Blood work- 100 plus depending

Urine another 100

chestor EKG 100 plus

surgery 300 plus

dental 300 plus

ect...

Now this is the decisions in Rescue. Can you throw away thousands of dollars, on one dog. Or use that money for several of rescues.

Depending on how the rescue is funded this may not be a problem

Do I think that he should suffer. No, But I would pay for everything- the major health concerns first and foremost. Being casterated is not one of the things that would be on my priority list.

Mini every dog that comes into my rescue gets ALL vet care, if its 10 dollars of 4000 dollars, thats the way we work here. There is no time limits or fund limits if the dog can have a quality of life after leaving our rescue. That's why we don't take many dogs. We are quality based not quantity....... we are not a shelter or pound we are a breed specific rescue and we are the last stop for many dogs who would be PTS anywhere else.

That is fine.. But sometimes people don't think quality of life... Because I have struggled with those terms... on one of my dogs. Because having a surgery is not always the best case sceniro on the older dogs.
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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Thu 26 Aug 2010, 3:08 pm

I understand that, and if I thought this dog's quality of life would suffer I would not do it.

I am not going to invest or hold on to a dog who will only suffer because of it, my goal is to give these dogs quality of life, but being old does not mean that this dog can not have that.....he will obviously have less then a younger dog but this is why we are here to help him get a life that he has never had before.

I am not here to prolong life only to make it better.
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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Thu 26 Aug 2010, 3:13 pm

Mini wrote:
mcpug wrote:
Mini wrote:
Actually , I agree with Pooper in this case

If he is in poor shape to begin with, it is harder on their systems to come out of it.

Too many more complications happen.. Bleed outs even in casterations can happen alot more then if they are younger.

Putting a dog under just to get fixed can cause him more problems then leaving him intacted.

The drugs used for sedation- depending on what the vet uses. Gas would be a little less on his system IMO then the other drugs.

I would make sure he has a pre op before going under.

I didn't say he was in poor shape, actually he is in really good physical shape he is just old and neglected.

I don't see how neutering a dog at any age could be considered cruel, maybe not what someone else would do but its no where near cruel.

People can pick apart whatever they want, I am in contact with a lot of people who have been in rescue for 40 plus years and I often seek advice from those who others would consider over the top or too picky about what happens with the dogs in rescue, to bitter about all the crap they see in rescue..... bottom line is they do it for the dogs, not for the public, not for the adopters, not for their own ego, not for popular public opinion.

I have euthanized dogs with behavioral problems, I denied many adopters for various reasons, I have gone against the popular public opinion to help dogs and the bottom line is I don't care what the public opinion is, I am doing what is ethically and morally correct for a reputable rescue and I do it for the dogs not anybody else.

I neuter or spay all dogs that come through the rescue unless there is a damn good reason not to, and being old is not a good reason by itself.

I can't just throw my hands up because he is old, that's not fair to him.


HOLD on Batman..

I was offering my opinion. I also stated to have a pre op done. On the outside he could be in fair shape.

But at that age. The heart of a dog.. you can not tell. If he has a weakness in his heart. Then putting him under could and would mean death. Having a Good pre op exam and tests is what is needed here. I have watched a couple of dogs and one cat die on the table due to the client not wanting a pre op tests done. THe vet can only do so much without actually blood work and EKG ect..

Reference to a reputable rescue- would put the dog first and foremost. If casteration is not one of the main Heatlh concerns then fine


Get off the soap box, my opinion was from a medical point of view only. I don't care what you have done and not done.Because you are talking and preaching to the wrong 2 people in that case.

The animals health IMO comes first and foremost. Adult or DOG. putting anyone under at a young or old age. COMES with HUGE.. HUGE HUGE risks. Way those risks and make sure you have a pre op and the tests completed.

So let me get this right... its cruel to neuter a dog that is 11 years old, because that's what was said....

Get off the soap box?

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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Thu 26 Aug 2010, 3:20 pm

mcpug wrote:
Mini wrote:
mcpug wrote:
Mini wrote:
Actually , I agree with Pooper in this case

If he is in poor shape to begin with, it is harder on their systems to come out of it.

Too many more complications happen.. Bleed outs even in casterations can happen alot more then if they are younger.

Putting a dog under just to get fixed can cause him more problems then leaving him intacted.

The drugs used for sedation- depending on what the vet uses. Gas would be a little less on his system IMO then the other drugs.

I would make sure he has a pre op before going under.

I didn't say he was in poor shape, actually he is in really good physical shape he is just old and neglected.

I don't see how neutering a dog at any age could be considered cruel, maybe not what someone else would do but its no where near cruel.

People can pick apart whatever they want, I am in contact with a lot of people who have been in rescue for 40 plus years and I often seek advice from those who others would consider over the top or too picky about what happens with the dogs in rescue, to bitter about all the crap they see in rescue..... bottom line is they do it for the dogs, not for the public, not for the adopters, not for their own ego, not for popular public opinion.

I have euthanized dogs with behavioral problems, I denied many adopters for various reasons, I have gone against the popular public opinion to help dogs and the bottom line is I don't care what the public opinion is, I am doing what is ethically and morally correct for a reputable rescue and I do it for the dogs not anybody else.

I neuter or spay all dogs that come through the rescue unless there is a damn good reason not to, and being old is not a good reason by itself.

I can't just throw my hands up because he is old, that's not fair to him.


HOLD on Batman..

I was offering my opinion. I also stated to have a pre op done. On the outside he could be in fair shape.

But at that age. The heart of a dog.. you can not tell. If he has a weakness in his heart. Then putting him under could and would mean death. Having a Good pre op exam and tests is what is needed here. I have watched a couple of dogs and one cat die on the table due to the client not wanting a pre op tests done. THe vet can only do so much without actually blood work and EKG ect..

Reference to a reputable rescue- would put the dog first and foremost. If casteration is not one of the main Heatlh concerns then fine


Get off the soap box, my opinion was from a medical point of view only. I don't care what you have done and not done.Because you are talking and preaching to the wrong 2 people in that case.

The animals health IMO comes first and foremost. Adult or DOG. putting anyone under at a young or old age. COMES with HUGE.. HUGE HUGE risks. Way those risks and make sure you have a pre op and the tests completed.

So let me get this right... its cruel to neuter a dog that is 11 years old, because that's what was said....

Get off the soap box?


NO, but it is a lot harder on an older dog's heart, lungs. Coming out of sedation for an older dog.. faces alot more risks then if the dog is younger.

The cruel part of it- comes when people ( not refering to you) don't know the risks- way the risks.. and complete ALL pre op tests to make sure their is no underlying health issues that will cause more complications in the surgery.

Castration is an easy surgery. The part where bleed outs.Is when you cut ( don't ask me the medical term) the nuts out. There is alot of blood. This vein has to be clamped. stitched and Coterized (SP) Now in older dogs.. if the veins are weak. ( which is the case due to age- just like a human. I have had some great experiences. But when you have an older dog. That dies on the table. You and your vet are head to toe in blood. You are trying to complete CPR. Help stop the bleed. A simple surgery---- because chaos and ultimately the dog dies. Not a fun place to be .

ETA: THe soap box comment was referred to.. a reputable rescue would do this. Or others have more experience. Pooper and I- ( plus others on this forum) Have rescued everything from dogs, horses, cats. We know the amount of money and what goes into rescuing.

But when referring to casteration- doesn't give him more quality of life. If he already has cancer. This will usually show around 4-8 years of age. Castrating him at this age- is not going to make his quality of life any better. It most likely will not help with the marking. Putting him under- puts him at a greater risk factor.

Like I said. I would make sure I complete PRE op tests. But this is me.

Anyone that has knows drake and I struggles the last year. I refused a surgery- for many reasons. His quality of life would not be what he has today. Castration, IMO at this point in his life- won't extend his life- won't add to the quality of his life. Would be more stressful. If he had to have a tumor removed- that is affecting his breathing or anything that puts him in pain. Yes. Having balls- unless he has testicle cancer. Is not putting him in pain.

Does this make sense
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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Thu 26 Aug 2010, 3:47 pm

It does make sense mini but he is not my dog, he belongs to the rescue and I have to abide by the ethics of the rescue. If he was my dog to keep I might think harder about it.

Anyway.....

We did a blood panel and will get the results tomorrow morning, the vet also took some fluid from a lump on his back leg, she expressed his anal glands, did a rectal exam and treated him for fleas/earmites and if the blood panel comes back normal then he will be neutered, and the vet thinks he should be neutered due to some anal problem that unaltered males get often that he is showing early signs of.... so it will benefit his health according to the vet.

He is at the groomer now being cleaned up.

Its fine to disagree with an opinion, and state reasons why you disagree but I really do not like the word "cruel" being used in reference, and that's what got my back up...... anyways all is fair in rescue and pet ownership so I won't mention it anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Thu 26 Aug 2010, 3:48 pm

I have to agree with Mini here. I respect your view and the mandate of your rescue mcpug but I was there not too long ago a different scenario but still having an older dog put under anesthetic.

My dog had a severe hematoma and it would not go away and the vet drained it five times and the last time my vet flat out told us that he could not drain it again and that if it were to refill that he would have to perform surgery to properly drain it but was very adamant about the risk of surgery due to his age, he was 12 at the time. He made it very clear to hubby and I that this could be a life or death scenario and insisted that if it came to that he would have to go through many tests before he would even consider the surgery. We got lucky and for some reason the hematoma never filled back up and we got an extra 2.5 years of memories but the risk was definitely there just like it is for this rescue that you are taking in.

I also do not think that neutering will have any impact on the prevention of his marking territory. That is habit and you can rarely ever take those types of instincts away. JMO

He is cute and I hope he does great at the vets and groomers and I hope to see him all cleaned up!!

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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Thu 26 Aug 2010, 5:07 pm

Poor little guy. Glad you are helping him out, Mcpug.
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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Thu 26 Aug 2010, 11:22 pm

McPug, your title is "Seniors in Rescue"... I made a statement that was in regards to your post, in no way was I referring to you personally, although it appears you took in as such. You should know by now that I am not one to enjoy drama on forums and I don't tend to make personal attacks, except for maybe really annoying people like the unmentionable spice and I really don't have interest in that either.

I don't talk about it much but I have been involved in rescue in the past and still am but just with maintaining their website. IMO each senior dog that is male doesn't need to be automatically neutered as I previously stated as I do think it is cruel and dogs should be assessed on a case by case basis for what's best for them. In my experience castration has never eliminated marking. My forte is more with horses and I know for a fact to geld a stallion at an age past 10 is a bad experience for them. They suffer greatly, heal slowly and most still have to be contained in a separate enclosure for the rest of their lives as they never lose the stallion behavior. I have never witnessed any benifit to it and disagree with it as it serves no purpose other than causing pain and stress. I have no problem with castrating young animals but obviously have strong opinions about the seniors. It's unfortunate that we can't agree but so what. Everyone does what they feel is best for the animals involved and we will just have to agree to disagree, everones experiences are different. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Fri 27 Aug 2010, 5:20 am

no harm..

I think I was just cranky and i understand what you are saying pooper.
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PostSubject: Re: seniors in rescue   Fri 27 Aug 2010, 10:34 am

His blood work was normal and his lump is harmless....all good news

Jerry actually is very well house trained so I don't know what the issue was at his previous home, he has not marked in my house at all and eagerly goes to the bathroom once on grass.

So I actually am going to think about this a little more, weather to neuter or not because there is nothing else he needs to go under for, even though my vet thinks we should go ahead (she also thinks he should have the lump removed but I disagree with that) I have taken all the advice in this thread seriously and thought about it a lot and I am going to continue to ponder it and not rush into anything.

I asked the same question on another forum and got mixed answers, some were very against and some very for so IDK.

and now more pics of jerry


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